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Rename article

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It has been suggested no later than 2007 that this article be renamed to Catherine, or possibly Birdetta. I have made this change (to Birdetta) it was reverted based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_titles. Canonically, the character's name is _Birdetta_ in North America, as it is clearly documented by Nintendo as the character's true and preferred name. It is true that many gamers and infact Nintendo themselves that often incorrectly refer to her as Birdo, but this is incorrect and harmful. The use of the name "Birdo" is discriminatory and abusive, and supportive of violence against LGBT people by disrespecting gender identity -- and the article already indicates via many references, including the continued use of 'she' pronouns that Birdetta identifies as female and prefers the "Birdetta" name.

I understand that WPCOMMON specifies that names should not be chosen based on what is "right" or not, but Wikipedia policies also include civility, anti-harrassment, anti-abuse, and anti-discrimination clauses which would apply here, which should restrict discriminatory descriptions except where it used as reference. The use of the name Catherine or Cathy would be an acceptable alternative as these comply to all the requirements of WPCOMMON Titles, as this is the commonly known and used name (in Japan), although North American audiences would be more familiar with the Birdetta name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ewindisch (talk • contribs) 20:16, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have some links to official Nintendo media referring to this character as "Birdetta"? ~Mable (chat) 07:43, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(Other than the 1988 manual, of course, which is obviously outdated) ~Mable (chat) 07:46, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Ewindisch,
First, the bureaucratic answer: Wikipedia goes by reliable sources (see WP:RS; for a list of reliable sources for video games specifically, see WP:VG/RS). If reliable sources would call the character Birdetta, we would too. As far as I can tell, that is not the case.
Second, the guidelines you're citing are usually for the Wikipedia community, like WP:CIVIL, WP:ABUSE and WP:NDP. There are articles called faggot (slang), nigger, gook, cheesehead (that's me!), beaner, you name it. The world can be an ugly place, and Wikipedia is a reflection of that. Don't forget, Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED.
Third, I honestly think you're making a mockery of LGBTQ issues with your claim. Birdo is a fictional character; how would she "identify as female" or prefer another name? She is created by Nintendo, but you believe the company is also incorrect by calling her Birdo? Why would "Birdo" be an offensive name? Is it some sort of slang I'm not familiar with? Regardless, suggesting that having Birdo as the title of the article is "supportive of violence against LGBT people" is absurd. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 08:02, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not using a person (or character's) chosen name is "deadnaming", invalidates their identity. The SMB2 manual can be interpreted as a statement that the character is transgender and prefers the name Birdetta. MOS:GENDERID provides clarity here for "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources." Now, I admit this is pretty old, so if this character has a newer, documented self-identified preference...71.175.51.8 (talk) 00:14, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly opposing everything in this proposal, and supporting just about everything in Soeterman's response. Sergecross73 msg me 13:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Canonically, the character's name is Birdo. North American readers are unlikely to recognize the name Birdetta, as it hasn't been used for thirty years. How do you know this fictional character still prefers this fictional name last used in 1988? Your other suggestion, Catherine, is a perfectly fine name for the Japanese Wikipedia (and is indeed used there) but not for the English Wikipedia. It's not a name used for the character in English-speaking regions. Reach Out to the Truth 23:37, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am referencing the SMB2 manual page which specifies (and is quoted in this article) as being preferred to be called "Birdetta". This requested change would also fall under WP:GenderIdentity. As to if this character would now prefer another name, lack of evidence is not evidence. Per WP:GenderIdentity: "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.51.8 (talk) 00:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That is exactly what I'm referring to. The manual is thirty years old, and Birdo's preferred name was removed from later printings. Even if WP:GENDERID applied to fictional characters, it is not the "most up-to-date" source. Reach Out to the Truth 00:41, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Reach Out to the Truth's comment is basically what I was thinking, yes. I could think of all kinds of reasons, ranging from retcon, to unreliable narrators, to a faulty translation of a Japanese concept, as for why Birdo may no longer be presented as transgender by Nintendo of America, or why the "Birdetta" name may no longer apply. ~Mable (chat) 08:57, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I Imagine that a extremely small minority would argue that we should change the name of a fictional character when the only evidence of thier preferred identity was documented almost 3 decades ago. In all the cases I am aware of where Wikipedia has used the preferred gender identity of a person (real or fictional) is when they started using the name on a regular basis, not due to a decades old passing reference. I would also argue that the fact the character has gone by the name Birdo in several appearances since that manual was written indicates that they are not going by the name BIrdetta.--64.229.167.158 (talk) 04:18, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There is also an apparent reference in Mario_&_Luigi:_Superstar_Saga where "Birdo" is quoted as saying, "Don't call me Birdo, call me Birdie!" [1] although verification of this reference and its context would be great. (If this is true, the argument could be made for 'Birdie' as the self-identified name). The character speaks seldomly on their own behalf, which is I think the only thing that matters per the MOP, not how others refer to them (the MOP does mention fictional characters so I think it applies here? IDK)Ewindisch (talk) 04:36, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The line is spoken in a very personal (not necessarily intimate) conversation that is similar to "Don't call me Robert, call me Bob." It's a one-off line that was added for humor. It hasn't changed anything; Nintendo has continued calling the character "Birdo" in the 13-14 years since this game was released, and all reliable sources continue calling it by this name. IMHO you're reading too much into a game series that is almost never consistent with itself. Attempting to relate or rationalize what characters say or prefer in context of real world topics is a waste of time. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 05:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the editors above, this is making a mockery of real world LGBT issues. Birdo is a fictional character. She has no preference what she is called because she isn't real. Direct this energy towards articles like Brandon Teena that could use some work. TarkusAB 10:54, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.mariowiki.com/Birdo
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GA Review

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GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Birdo/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Pokelego999 (talk · contribs) 03:32, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Andrzejbanas (talk · contribs) 14:35, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Let's see what this character article crazy is all about. I'll try to take a good look at this article today and over the weekend. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:35, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Review first draft

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I was going to go through a few detailed points, but there are some specific issues that are all over the map with this article.

Prose

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  • Throughout the article the terms "however" and "noted" are being used. Per MOS:SAY and WP:NOTED, these are words to watch as they imply truth on subjective ideas. Try to re-write all instances of these.
  • Much of the article assume we are familiar with the Super Mario series, ranging from just casually talking about Super Mario Bros. 2 and Doki Doki Panic. There also seems to seems to be a bit of conflict with what is written and some sources used, some says Birdo was mistakenly called Ostro, other says "for unknown reasons" Birdo is called Ostro. Probably should give both a valid viewpoint here. Same with saying showing up in various Mario spin-offs. Most people stumbling upon this article via random article button wouldn't know what is a spin-off Mario game is, its probably better to dig out some more sources and say Mario Kart series or Mario Sports series then list them or ones where Birdo is making cameo appearance or even being a playable character.
  • "The Japanese manual for Doki Doki Panic, when translated into English, states her name to be Catherine and is a male who thinks of himself as female, adding that she likes to wear a bow and would rather be called "Cathy." This and few others are really long-winded sentences. Perhaps simply "The Japanese manual for Doki Doki Panic has her named Catherine and writes that Birdo is male and thinks of himself as female." (Not sure how relevant the "Would like to be called Cathy" is for the topic at hand for example, as that doesn't really feel relevant like the Birdo/Biredetta gender dysphoria.)
  • Same with "In the first edition manual for the English North American release of Super Mario Bros. 2, Birdo is referred to by a text block that states "he thinks he is a girl" and would "rather be called 'Birdetta.'"
    • Bit of a long chunky sentence. Perhaps "Text in the first edition manual for the North American release of Super Mario Bros. 2 stated that Birdo would "rather be called 'Birdetta'" and "he thinks he is a girl"."
  • While the naming reference of Birdetta seems key for the transgender conversation, the mention of the Kathy over Catherine or the giant robot birdo seem trivial per WP:WEIGHT.
  • The way some things are phrased are just coming off as unfactual. For example, the game says Birdo later appears in Super Mario RPG, but before mentions some GameCube games, giving their chronological history wrong. Same with Birdo receiving "generally positive reception" when the rest of two paragraphs talk about Birdo being problematic, not to mention ignoring the cite within the article of Birdo being on a "worst" Nintendo character lists.

Sourcing

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  • http://mariosmashfootball.nintendo-europe.com/player.cfm?lang=es is dead.
  • "Mario Strikers Charged Football" archive URL has seemingly been removed from the wayback machine.
  • The ""First Impressions: Super Mario Advance". IGN." article only states Birdo sounds like someone's mother, not that it was given a female voice actor. You might be able to re-use this with the note about how Birdo "had a deep voice in Japanese commercials, emphasizing her masculinity." from this article.
  • The citation for Birdo showing up in Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga does not seem to be backed up by the source that does not mention the game.
  • "Solid Gold: The Best of the NES from 1UP.com" makes no mention of Birdo or anything backed up by this sentence.
  • "Life on the screen: identity in the age of the Internet" expand source with publisher, ISBN, etc.
  • I audibly laughed as the author of the NintendoLife article being credited as "Life, Nintendo". There is a credited author here. :)

I'm not going to fail this as I think there is a lot of content here, but it really need some re-organizing. I'll leave it up to you @Pokelego999: (or any other interested editor) before giving it a more thorough review. Feel free to ping me if you have any more specific questions. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:16, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Andrzejbanas made requested edits where I could. I have a few questions though, which I've listed below alongside fixes for some specific problems.
-Wikipedia:It should be noted discusses "noted" when the editor themselves uses it to address the reader and promote an opinion. It mentions nothing about the Reception, where we are stating that another author noted something and are not attempting to use noted to sway reader opinion. (Functionally different use cases: Instead of "It should be noted that Birdo is..." (Where the writer is attempting to push their opinion) versus "Author So and Such, writing for a website, noted in an op-ed..." (Where we are simply stating that somebody else has said this)) It shouldn't be too much of an issue given the use of this word in this context has no opinion-based connotations, and I have taken care not to use it outside of Reception. I did touch on the however problem, as most of those were leftovers from older edits I forgot to remove, though I am a bit confused in regards to "However"'s use case with the 100 Greatest Video Game Characters source, as MOS:SAY only describes "However" in the context of linking two or more sources, not in the context of describing differing angles within the same source.
So i'm glad you brought this up as "noted" still holds a sliver more weight than simply saying someone said anything. "Noted" is a bit more of a stressor, like "please note that the rent is due" suggests an implied importance of what follows, while simply saying someone wrote or said something is a bit more neutral. Compare it to the less urgent "The landlord said the rent is due at the end of the month" is a bit less pushy. This is mild, but I've had several reviews of my own where noted has been asked to be pulled without even claiming a rule, and I feel it makes things better. As for the However, even if its in its own book, it does suggest that one POV of an author more valid than their other issue. I read "howevers" so often in video game articles, even featured ones, and they are almost always used in reception right after some bad reviews are listed followed by some more positive ones. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How would you suggest changing the 100 Greatest Video Game Characters source to remove However? I'm admittedly uncertain given both viewpoints are given relatively equal weight in the book. Also, though I personally disagree on the "noted" topic, I've taken the liberty of removing them from Reception regardless, so do let me know if the new wordings are alright. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
-Could you clarify what kind of edits you want me to make in regards to series context? Most of it isn't relevant for understanding Reception, hence why I avoided much description due to undue weight concerns. I feel I get sort of what you're saying (Defining what each individual game is, i.e, Mario Kart is a racing series, the RPG games are turn based combat games, etc) but I'm confused as to how you would want that accomplished best in the article, since I can see multiple different angles for fixing that. For now, I've clarified some information in the Appearances section regarding Doki Doki Panic and Super Mario Bros. 2.
I don't have it quite on hand, but I know one of the sources in the article did clarify some key information to people who may be approaching this from a "random article" perspective. I.e: one says that the narrative isn't a focus in the Mario series and another mentions that Birdo initially appears as a boss character. I think this would give context to new readers. Something to the effect of "Birdo is a character in the Super Mario series of video games. These games primarily focus on gameplay and have simple narratives. There is little information regarding Birdo in design and narrative in these games." Then you can move on to "Birdo first appears in Doki Doki Panic, a game that was later re-designed into Super Mario Bros. 2." This is important, as it comes into play a lot with the gender and trans discussions. Following that, I think saying "Birdo has since made appearance as a boss character in various games including as a boss character in Super Mario RPG (1996), Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (2003)...as a playable character in various Mario sports games such as (list two to three here) and cameo apperances in ______." I think listing every individual game Birdo shows up in might come off as a bit trivial, but it shows scope of Birdo's apperance, what they might do (they are playable! they are a boss baddie! etc.). If we add years to the end of games as well in the article, it also helps the reader read between the lines to get more information. Such as, Birdo first appearing in Doki Doki Panic (1987) and the years following this sort of fill in the blanks of the longevity of the character, showing up again throughout the games in the 90s, 2000s, and so forth. 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
I believe you're referring to the TheGamer source? The article states "Narrative has never been all that crucial to Mario - hence why The Super Mario Bros. Movie was just a bunch of stuff that happened - and so we think of the characters in frozen states. Mario hasn't changed much over the years. Peach has gained a little more agency recently, but she hasn't struggled for it or earned it, she has just evolved with the times. The Mario characters are the same archetypes they always were, and that works for the Mario formula. But Birdo is a rare exception." I tried to adapt what I could from your suggestions, but I do worry your initial suggestion of describing narrative in the Mario series via this source may border on original research, so I just kept it to the basics. I've reorganized Appearances a bit per your suggestions, so let me know your thoughts. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for going through this. I think what I was trying to say were these key points
  • "Narrative has never been all that crucial to Mario" which could be phrased as something like "In the Super Mario video games, narrative is generally not the primary focus with most characters being presented as archetypes. Stacey Henley of TheGamer said Birdo was an exception..." and then we can go into details of how Birdo has been interpreted. I don't think we're pulling too many words that aren't there from TheGamer article with that. Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:49, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
-Removed references to Robirdo and some of the minor details you suggested removed. Also rephrased using your suggestions.
-I altered the text in the spin-off appearances section (Changed from later appearances to more correct text, I honestly forgot Double Dash got brought up prior to those games when writing this.)
-I've rephrased the lead to be a bit more accurate to the article content. Let me know your thoughts on this.
I think I brought it up before, but antagonist sort of suggests that Birdo is the main enemy in Mario 2. Not really the case as that would be Wart. I think Boss or if you can find such a description, "Mini-boss" might be more appropriate here. I'll make more suggestions as I get into the meat and potatoes of the article. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed the phrasing from "antagonist" to "boss." Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
-Removed the Smash Football reference since I cannot find any citation reference outside of that link.
Unfortunate, but fair. Thanks Nintendo... Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
-I'm a bit confused on how you want me to utilize the statement about the ads with the IGN source. Could you clarify this information?
The phrasing said Birdo had a female voice actor, while the source I believe just said Birdo sounded like someone's mother. we can extrapolate this on how Birdo is presented from a gendered persepctive. Maybe an over-riding statement in the articles saying something Perhaps something like "Birdo has been presented with both male and female sounding voices in different mediums". Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Changed per your suggestion. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
-Fixed the Superstar Saga cite; I meant to cite Game Rant there, not TheGamer.
All good. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
-Completely overlooked the 1UP cite during my round of edits. I found a few sources that back up the statement, though they're small mentions, so I reworded it. Let me know if you want me to axe this section entirely.
The 1up source might be a bit more buried within the pages, I've seen some old citations just refer to this deeper in these multi-page articles. I didn't check that far, but might be worth digging into. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
-Added additional information on the book source.
-Nintendo Life has a weird thing with the citation templates where it generates the author as "Nintendo Life" instead of the author name. I try to patch that where I can but in this case I missed it. Thanks for the catch.
No problem. None of the issues should be brought up on my reflections as you or anyone as an editor to be fair, its just me doing the rounds on an article. I didn't notice it until a second or third quick check either. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do let me know what you believe would be best as reviewer edit wise on some of these issues, as I do wish to clarify a few points before I make edits. Let me know if there's anything else beyond the above you'd like me to change, as well. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 01:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Pokelego999. I've responded to your comments here and can probably do a more thorough review after these are done/responded to. Good work so far! Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Andrzejbanas (talk · contribs) I've made edits per your suggestions. Apologies about the wait, my notifications didn't notify me for whatever reason and I've been busy the past few days. Let me know your thoughts as you take another look through the article. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey. I feel like when you edited one portion of the article @Pokelego999:, you didn't adjust this in other sections making it still a bit complicated. I've started going through the article when I noticed some parts haven't really changed to reflect your most recent changes and updates.

Phrasing

  • Perhaps give the Japanese explanation of Birdo's name in a hatnote as its not really essential to understanding the article (but still info we probably shouldn't toss out). I'd make it follow the way its presented on the Jill Valentine article.
  • On reading, maybe "boss character" instead of boss enemy. As I don't think there are any other type of "boss" characters who aren't enemies in general terms.
  • "The English manual for Super Mario Bros. 2 describes Birdo as a man who "thinks he is a girl"." Not completely the case, as it doesn't say he's a man, they just use "he" pronouns. Perhaps re-phrase the manual describes "Birdo as a character who "thinks he is a girl."
  • "This led to Birdo being intepreted as transgender". Probably should say who had discussed this i.e: LGBTQ interest and video game publications. Unless there are more academic sources on this, we should probably say who is saying this as Birdo won't really exist in the mindset of people outside this stratosphere of fandom/social interests.

This is a bit frustrating to write about as Nintendo does not really discuss this and constantly switches up the gender pronouns applied to this character. Again, I don't think we should just go into different lists of how Birdo has been interpreted in later games sentence by sentence. "In Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Birdo is referred to with "it" pronouns.[9] Birdo appears in the Wii Japan-only video game Captain Rainbow, which delves into Birdo's gender identity.[10] It specifically depicts her being imprisoned for entering the women's bathroom, and the player is asked to locate proof of her femininity (her vibrator) to get her out.[9] The European website for Mario Strikers Charged Football refers to Birdo as a male character,[11] while the game Mario Kart: Double Dash expresses confusion over Birdo's gender identity.[9] In the British English versions of Super Mario Party, Birdo is referred to with male pronouns." Probably try to re-phrase this whole thing as something like "Since the relase of Super Mario Bros. 2, games featuring Birdo have described the character variously as both male, female and an indeterminate sex or gender" Whatever you feel is best. There is some later Nintendo published material of Birdo being presented as female in this source noting Birdo being listed on a banner in Mario Kart 8 as " "Woman of Racing Organization" advert alongside Daisy and Peach".

  • "Birdo appears in the Wii Japan-only video game Captain Rainbow" probably don't need the Japan exclusive information.
  • In the concept and creation section, put years on games for consistency.
  • "Birdo additionally has appeared as a playable character several times in the Mario Kart series of racing games,[9][23][24] and has had roles in other Mario franchise games, such as the puzzle video game Wario's Woods (1994), where Birdo assists the game's protagonist, Toad, by giving Toad the bombs he needs to defeat enemies,[25] and in other games, including Super Mario Maker (2015),[26] and RPG game Paper Mario: The Origami King (2020)" Really long run on sentence. Suggest splitting. The second sentence also makes it sound like Birdo does the same thing in Wario's Wood as they do in Origami King and Super Mario Maker. The cite in Super Mario Maker also just says birdo is a "skin" for the character.
  • "mostly positive reception" is not backed up. one overview calsl Birdo a fan-favourite, but none of this is an overall reception and the prose following it suggests people seem to be very mixed on Birdo as a whole. I would scrap any "overall" interpretation remark as we currently have nothing to back ths up. (Not to mention we have that source above that lists Birdo on the "Worst" nintendo characters list.)


  • "This led to Birdo being interpreted as transgender, which would make her the first transgender video game character." and "Due to this, she is considered to be the first transgender video game character." are not specifically backed up by the source. The source states "As the first trans character, Birdo made her debut 25 years ago in 1988's Super Mario Bros. 2." There are a few issues here: this isn't a serious study of the history of trans characters in video game history, this is a list of trans-friendly characters and not a particularly indepth study. For example, they also state that "birdo would eventually leave her evil ways and help Mario & Luigi", which as we can see from the article, that's just not the case as Birdo goes back and forth between being a villain and not being one. and they state that source for this information is an "ingame description", which is also not accurate, as it is from the games manual. I would remove the "first trans" character bit here, and try to let the reception deal with historical stuff elsewhere.
    • As Nintendo has not been clear on this, we should probably give both sides a fresh point of view. the Wire article states "one of two things has happened since the 1988 release of Mario 2. Either Nintendo retconned Birdo’s gender crisis out of existence by turning him into a her, or, if you’re following Reitz’s interpretation, Birdo had a sex change operation. Either way, Birdo’s referred to as a "her" in modern games like Mario Tennis." I don't think we have to assume Birdo has had an operation as thats kind of . . . giving a lot backstory to a character who barely has any." Because of this we shouldn's state things like "Mention of this fact is further not included in most later games featuring the character." as it again implies one interpretation of Birdo is more correct than another.
      • I'd disagree with giving a lot of weight to the Wire source on this. A lot of this is rather unnecessary detail saying the same interpretation that is backed up by nearly every other major source in the article. (Birdo is transgender). I do feel all the statements needed to verify this are already in the article (Especially given TheGamer source I added which specifies Birdo is widely perceived as transgender, thus showing this is non-canon but still a widely popular interpretation) thus covering both perspectives on the subject needed. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • For example SoraNews24 says Birdo is "potentially transgender" here,
    • The Vice article contemplates that Birdo should only be interpreted is strong in going into debates over this. Suggesting Birdo might only be transgender at Mario Tennis, but might also not be as we wouldn't assume Waluigi is even if he's the mixed double partner for Wario. as well as that "Nintendo seems to have decided to identify the character, rather, as gender-fluid, for reasons that have never been explicitly discussed. The confusion, at this point, is not so much Birdo's sexual one, but Nintendo's in having to adapt the character from the Japanese market to the Western one." and "at first glance, Nintendo does not know how to handle this secondary character and tries from time to time to pigeonhole him according to the tastes and morals of the moment." and "this failed attempt at labeling ... makes Birdo even more unintentionally subversive and symbolic."
      Sorry I should've have been more clear (was half typing this before I went to bed! :) ) Basically we don't have to use these sources, but I would go through all the ones cited as decent chunk have given various interpretations on what Birdo's situation may be (gender-fluid, queer, trans, etc.) I think if we address that these have all been potential views, we can then present the more overwhelming point of fans and some publications going towards the trans interpretation as a popular one. Specifically, I think Vice article's key point is that the non-disclosed nature of Birdo has made the character a popular and symbolic. I hope I'm coming across on this okay! Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:34, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I've dug up a few more sources that discuss this maybe slightly more thoutfully:
      • Where Is the Queerness in Games? Types of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer Content in Digital Games "In some cases it is difficult to define characters as transgender, in large part because the localization process sometimes changes how their genders are described. For example, Birdo in Super Mario Bros. 2 was described in the original instruction manual as thinking “he” was a girl. Most later games simply describe her with feminine pronouns and make no mention of her being transgender. In one game that Birdo appears in, however, a trophy states that she has an “indeterminate gender.” Moreover, in a game released only in Japan called Captain Rainbow, the player must free Birdo after she has been put in jail for “using the wrong bathroom.”" Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:48, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Another:
      • Nintendo Switch-ing Genders: Bowsette and the Potentiality of Transgender Video Game Mechanics (oclc.org) ""Transgender scholarship on Nintendo and other mainstream developers in particular tends to highlight the queer perception and reception of various iconic characters, and in doing so these articles almost always emphasize the visual presentation of the icons above all else. Samus Aran of Metroid is trans because the reveal of her gender mimics common coming-out narratives. Sheik of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is non-binary because their body remains visually indeterminate to the player. Super Mario’s own minor villain Birdo is interesting precisely because ofthe “supposedly conflicting masculine and feminine signifiers” employed for them throughout the series. Such analyses and their forebearers are undeniably useful and important in their own right, and as Jennifer Malkowski and Treaandrea M. Russworm correctly point out, “representation is not fully separate from the implicitly hard-core elements of games: it is achieved through and dependent on player and machine actions” just as much as “surface-level images and sounds.” Nonetheless, the compound effect of this strain of critique has been to background the non-representational trans aspects of gaming and relegate discussions of such concepts to independent and avant-garde queer developers." This one may require access to the Wikipedia library, if you don't have access, I can help you with this. Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:00, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Because of the above, I feel like there is/was a lot written in the reception of the section about Birdo and trans-representation with the assumption that Birdo is canonically trans, but this is all just interpretation as Nintendo has gone back and forth on this in various games.
      I think generally speaking with perhaps some more information on how queer and trans and related characters are represented in video games as a whole might give a clearer picture. Birdo is not a very fleshed out character, so these readings are based on very minor notes. I feel like the academic journal above goes into grander detail and is a good read. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:50, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Autostraddle website might have good content, but this list seems...really jokey. Which is fine, but I might not use it for serious critical assessment. Even on using the list of characters by queerness it lists #1 as "you". I feel like this list is humorous and fun, but maybe shouldn't be banked as serious critical interpretation or reasoning.
  • I think you asked above for what I meant by saying the Mario games and where Birdo fits into lore. For an example on how to phrase this, I would suggest looking at the article for Phoenix (1980 video game). I simply state what we do know in basic form "Phoenix was developed in Japan. The original developer is unknown". we can apply something similar to Birdo so people don't feel like they are missing out on the character that just basically hitting the beats that "Birdo is a character in the Super Mario series of video games. These games primarily focus on gameplay and have simple narratives. There is little information regarding Birdo in design and narrative in these games." like I said above. I don't reccomend using this exact phrasing, but just try to get these bits of information of the character out there so the reader doesn't feel like they are missing out on information that they might expect from a character article. Andrzejbanas (talk) 07:45, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Andrzejbanas: I've addressed all of your above suggestions. If you could clarify on some of these points, I'd greatly appreciate it, since I feel some of your current suggestions are a bit unclear and I'd like clarity before implementing them into the article. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've tried to clarify on some parts you asked about @Pokelego999:. I appreciate you going in for this on the long haul. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:25, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Andrzejbanas apologies about the bludgeoning on the point, but I do want to make sure this information is organized correctly. How would you want these references to other interpretations referenced? Would you want it to be in the "concept and creation" section? (For example, "Birdo has also been interpreted by other authors as being an example of a gender-fluid character..."). I just want to make sure I have this right before I make edits.
But yeah, I will say, thank you for being so thorough on the article. It's very much caught a lot of things I'd have missed otherwise, and I'm glad that with your suggestions we've been able to improve Birdo up to an incredibly high-quality standard. I greatly appreciate the lengths you've been going to with this review, so again, thank you for the work and the help you've provided on this article. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:57, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. I just don't want you to become frustrated. :) My heart isn't set on any way of phrasing the Birdo situation as I haven't really done thorough research, but as those more academic additions I've suggested above the situation gets complicated. I think applying these key factors from the "Switch-ing Genders" journal entry might have these key points to add that summarize the view point well.
  • "Transgender scholarship on Nintendo almost always emphasize the visual presentation of the icons above all else."
and
  • "it is difficult to define characters as transgender, in large part because the localization process sometimes changes how their genders are described."
Basically, my own issue with using these citations saying Birdo is widely described as trans are on articles that are mostly listicles trying to list trans characters and as we listed above, that comes into problems as we are banking that the Mario 2 manual is "correct" and any other interpretation Nintendo has said since is "wrong". Nintendo has changed who and what their characters are, so I think we should showcase the interpretations of Birdo as trans, but we should also maybe add that other interpretations of Birdo at least being queer or gender fluid be inputted as well after the focus on trans discussion (this is more key in the reception section). But we shouldn't maybe make "trans" the default descriptor of the character in concept section shouldn't be "she is widely considered" to "she has been described as" trans or possibly combining sources, "has been predominantly described as trans, or potentially gender-fluid or queer". I'll let you read the articles above and re-think this as it's obviously a sensitive topic and we shouldn't rush to find a solution. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:19, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Andrzejbanas is your suggestion that you wish for me to clarify that Birdo being transgender is an interpretation by others and not Nintendo canon? Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:20, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, Nintendo has been mum on the topic. I apologize if i'm not being coming across as clear. I think we are being clear that Nintendo has applied various genders and pronouns to Birdo. But we should state that the depth of the queerness and the other interpretations as well as it's become a bit less cut and dry that Birdo is trans without question as alternative ideas (as stated above) and the academic articles state that Birdo's trans quality is a bit surface level. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:51, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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