Talk:Autism rights movement

NPOV-dispute and other tags

I have decided to place a number of tags on this article because of—but not limited to—these following issues:

1. Written from a far-from-neutral POV
   • Lacks an encyclopedic tone, sounding closer to advocacy than objectiveness (e.g. [...] which give them distinct strengths and weaknesses, and are capable of succeeding when appropriately accommodated and supported. This is not to belittle the challenges that autistic people face, but rather to point out that many of these challenges are due to structural inequities that can be remedied through equal access and acceptance of autistic differences)
   • Biases the reader to believe there are only two sides (medical vs. social model of disability), no in-between
   • Gives undue weight to certain viewpoints and controversies and excludes context (e.g. "Curing" autism is a controversial and politicized issue. Doctors and scientists are not sure of the causes of autism yet many organizations like Autism Research Institute and Autism Speaks have advocated researching a cure)
   • Sections that discuss criticisms of the movement do so without adequately presenting counterarguments nor the context of the criticisms
   • States opinions as facts (e.g. Neurodiversity advocates are opposed to research for a cure, as this aim is a form of eugenics, and instead support research that helps autistic people thrive as they are)
2. Focused too much on Autism Speaks
3. Relies too much on biased and outdated sources
4. Cites sources that don't back up the statement
5. Repeats the same thing over and over (specifically that the movement believes that autism is a natural difference, not a disorder)

I'd love to be able to fix all these issues myself, but this article is huge. Pinecone23 (talk) 23:56, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Deleted some content not supported by the source in the "Opposition Perspectives" section: I think that's the most egregious problem in the article. The content there needs to be sourced to each sentence, which it is not, and it definitely needs to be presented in context with counterarguments. This is especialy important because the organization one of the former quotees was from advocated (from the above) for people to be "put to death by lethal injection" who were part of the neurodiversity movement. These kinds of views should not be presented without at least criticism. Mrfoogles (talk) 02:35, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Good call on deleting that content! I completely agree; each sentence, especially in sections that are controversial or present opposing views, needs to be sourced and presented in context with counterarguments. To be honest, I do not see the use for this article. Its content is pretty much the same as Neurodiversity, although I believe that article also has similar issues to this one. Anyhow, I am putting Autism rights movement on my agenda for next month (August), so I'll see if I can give it some work then. Kindly, Pinecone23 (talk) 10:33, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking of making some changes, but don't want to just jump in and make things more muddled. Hi! I am an Autistic advocate. I also am working on a paper (tentatively accepted for publication) building a philosophy-based argument as to why neither behaviorists not neuropsychologists have anything useful to offer to Autistic people.

In this I also make the point that the tired old "what about the 'severely Autistic' kids" (not my langauge, the language of people like Simon Baron-Cohen) argument. The clear intent of this frame is to imply that because there are some Autistic kids with more complex co-occurring conditions they should be left to the arguments. Part of my rebuttal of that is to point out that the 'experts' still largely equate being a non-speaker (and they haven't even changed their language about this) with having intellectual challenges. So I believe that this sort of counter-argument mades to me to the claims that more complex cases are things the 'experts' should control. I've got a good quote from Melanie Yergeau on this (from 'Authoring Autism').

I also would advocate for framing the question of the Autistic Rights movement, in line with pretty much every other human rights movement, as having a baseline an insistence that the community fighting for rights should be granted deference in deciding who they are, what language should be used to describe them, and who should be allowed to speak for them.

Let me ask a devil's advocate sort of question: why should the page about the Autistic Rights movement have a tone and slant different from this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_States which seems to be almost entirely written from a perspective of LGBT Rights are positive things, and has a tiny section on opposition.

I think that allowing the voices in opposition to Autistic Rights the amount of deference currently represented on this page is actually badly out of step with any basic principles of Human Rights. The position of the Autistic Rights movement, and this is the crux of my article, is that things like Behavior Therapy (ABA) are fundamentally incompatible with the Human Rights of Autistic People.

Shouldn't it be up to the Autistic Community to decide what the neutral point of view of Autistic Rights should be?

There is massive overlap between Gender Theory, Queer Theory, and Neuroqueer theory, why is Autism the one of these three where there is such strong support for an opposition voice and balance? Zenmasterbear (talk) 13:02, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

To be clearer: I am happy to help with the process of cleaning this all up! I'm not just offering complaints! Zenmasterbear (talk) 13:11, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I've gone through and reworked a bunch of this. My basic approach was to make this look more like the other articles which are documenting human rights movements. This means that I don't think this is the right place to be elevating the views of people who are at odds with the concept of the autistic rights movement.

I also took out some amount of the stuff which seemed to be more about arguing points of advocacy, which I agree this isn't the place for that. I tried to make things about statements of principles, rather than disputes with external voices. Because, look, we're talking human rights here, there shouldn't be external voices.

I'm happy to put something in about current thinking which holds that Neurodivergence (of which, of course Autism is just one piece) has significant overlap with the LGBQT+ space both in terms of the fluidity of the labels, and the insistence that only the communities, and the individuals in the community, get to decide what that labels mean. There's articles out there about the intersection of Queer and Neuroqueer theory. And of course the historical parallel there is that psychiatry used to label things like being gay as a 'disorder' and eventually that got taken out of the DSM. So if we're talking about Autistic Rights, we're talking about a realm where the DSM isn't actually very relevant at all.

I also removed the bit about the puzzle piece logo because, again, wrong place. Parents want to put together something about their support for the puzzle piece, fine. But it's pretty soundly rejected by the Autistic Rights movement, so not really relevant here.

IF we want something at the end (and I did move some stuff there) about 'controversies' I think that's where it should be. But I would vote for removing those bits entirely. There is a separate page about controversies in Autism elsewhere, and I think there is a standard of not presenting conflicting views in articles like this.

As a corollary, I do think that the other pages should be reworked to make it clear that the tension is one between people speaking from a human rights perspective, and others arguing from a medical viewpoint. Which, sure, it serves my advocacy goal of making the medical people look evil, but we don't offer balanced perspectives on misogyny and racism, right? Or do we? I haven't seen any sign of that being okay. Zenmasterbear (talk) 22:37, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

How would you define 'Autistic Rights movement' ? Andy Dingley (talk) 22:53, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I would define it as a loosely-coupled set of groups and individuals forming a social rights movement and advocating for broad changes in society to bring understanding of autism and neurodivergence in line with the Neurodiversity Paradigm and an understanding that the Autistic community is a minority group deserving, and currently largely deprived of, full human rights. This movement is in alignment with both the disability rights movement, and the broader neurodivergence rights movement.

Lots more details below, but in case you wanted just a short form answer, you can stop here. Please let me know if this is helpful and/or at least responsive to your question.

One of the central ideas of the Autistic Rights movement is that, contrary to the dominant narratives coming from the medical community and a subset of very vocal parents, Autistic lived experience is the most important information in understanding Autism. This is expressed in the slogan, borrowed from the Disability Rights movement, "Nothing About Us Without Us."

The dominant paradigm, espoused by the medical community generally, Psychiatry specifically, and embraced by a subset of parents is that Autism is best understood by external observation by trained observers. The Autistic rights movement strongly rejects this paradigm, and especially rejects the claims by non-Autistic people that Autistic people are sub-human, and that Autistic behavior is aberrant (or 'maladaptive' as the behaviorists have it).

The Autistic Rights movement believes that the dominant view is incompatible with the Neurodiversity Paradigm, and that one cannot both have a view that Autism is a disorder, defect, or disease, and have the idea that it is a naturally occurring and sometimes advantageous form of human neurotype.

Because autism is framed by the Autistic Rights movement as a natural and equally valid way of being human (relative to neurotypicality), any talk of symptoms, treatment, or cure, is seen as offensive.

There is significant diversity within the movement as to specific goals and strategies. The movement sees the medical establishment and better-known charities (yes, such as Autism Speaks) to be oppressors of the human rights of Autistics. One of the flashpoints for this conflict is the use of Applied Behavior Analysis which the Autistic Rights movement considers abuse, even torture, and believes should be banned. Similarly, the theories espoused by mainstream psychologists, such as Theory of Mind, have been rejected by Autistic scholars (such as Damian Milton) who argue that rather than there being an Autistic deficit in Theory of Mind there is mutual misunderstanding, something Milton calls The Double Empathy Problem.

One of the implications of The Double Empathy Problem is that non-Autistic people are bad at understanding Autistic people through external observation, and that the only way to understand Autistic people is to listen to how they describe what behaviors and interactions mean to them. Because almost the entire body of research, especially in the fields of psychology and Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA), is purely based on observation and takes no account of the Autistic viewpoint, some advocates argue that none of this research is valid.

Theorists, such as the rhetorician, and Autistic scholar, Melanie Yergeau, have argued (in their book 'Authoring Autism' for example) that psychologists and behaviorists deny the ability of Autistic people to speak for themselves. It should thus be understood that critiques of Autistic Rights which take the form of a claim that there is a level of 'too Autistic' to speak for themselves coupled with an appeal to expertise seated in medicine and psychology, are simply a continuation of decades of attempts to deny the relevance of Autistic lived experience. This too is well-documented in Yergeau's book.

Within this framework, the voices of doctors and scientists, such as Simon Baron-Cohen are suppressors of the voices of Autistic people, which places them in an untenable position relative to the concept of human rights. Baron-Cohen occasionally paying lip service to the framing of the Autistic Rights movement, while persisting in support of his own research and academic record, is viewed as an attempt to co-opt the language of the movement to try to regain control, rather than actual support for Autistic Rights (Yergeau again). Similarly, the group Autism Speaks, by lobbying in favor of interventions (specifically ABA) is seen as a group lobbying against the concept of Autistic Identity, which seems to make them de facto, if not de jure (yet), a hate group. There is also concern in the Autistic Movement that both Baron-Cohen, many scientists, and Autism Speaks are connected to a eugenics-based approach to 'eliminating Autism.'

While the Autistic Rights movement has a strong interest in supporting parents, especially non-Autistic parents, of Autistic children, there is a strong belief that this support requires parents to accept the Autistic Rights perspective. As one example, I am unaware of any Autistic-moderated group where non-Autistic people can ask for advice and assistance which allows for any advocacy for ABA. Zenmasterbear (talk) 09:58, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, although I'm still finding it hard to definitively answer my real question (perhaps I should have asked it more directly!)

Do you think the Autistic Rights movement is a good or a bad thing?

Do you see Autism Speaks as part of it, or contrary to it?

Thanks Andy Dingley (talk) 12:05, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I think it is very much a good thing. Honestly, I think you would have a hard time finding an Autistic person who didn't. From my perspective, and the perspective of many others, this really is a question between one side arguing that Autistic people are fully human and entitled to human rights and should be allowed to define who they are; and the other side arguing that Autistics are not fully human and that nothing they have to say matters, and that they disagree that the questions being raised (such as access to education, employment, bodily autonomy, etc.) are relevant because Autistic voice is an oxymoron.

Autism Speaks is a hate group. One of the co-founders spoke about favoring using eugenics to eliminate Autistic people. They advocate strongly for viewing autism as a problem to be solved. The way they talk about autism on their website is very negative and very much rooted in the medical pathology viewpoint. I would say that Autism Speaks only speaks for the non-Autistic parents who think that having an Autistic child is a blight on their life, and that the 'victim' (if there must be one) is the parent.

In the same way that presumably the viewpoint of most or all people contributing to articles about feminism and LGBQT rights and anti-racism believe that those are good things, and believe that there is a significant human rights issue with presenting critiques of those concepts as equally valid.

Again, if I've answered your question you can stop reading here.

Here's a simple real-world example: one of the common things that behavior therapy is used for is to teach Autistic people to make more eye contact. Something that Autistics (myself included) find uncomfortable, intrusive, and often creepy. The defense for doing this is that many job interviewers will hold it against someone if they don't make eye contact.

I would frame this as being an instance where job interviewers routinely discriminate against Autistic people because they make (false) assumptions about what lack of eye contact means. The correct solution to this is to do a better job of educating the general population about the importance of seeing Autistic people as being 'foreign' not 'broken.' Eye contact isn't actually a universal human thing. The Japanese, for example, tend not to make eye contact and think it rude. And I think it would be considered racist (rightly) to either punish Japanese people for not making eye contact, or to force Japanese people to make more eye contact.

I can see an argument in favor of a short-term plan of helping Autistic people overcome their discomfort purely within a job interview setting. But this should be done in a way which respects the discomfort and distress this might cause. But ABA approaches this as seeing a lack of eye contact as 'maladaptive' and seeking to make Autistic people always make more eye contact. Also, such a short-term approach should be accompanied with messaging about why employers are wrong to place the value they do on eye contact when they are interacting with Autistic people, not accepting and boosting that practice. Similarly, teaching Autistic kids how to behave differently in situations where the Autistic person perceives it as worth the cost to them of 'masking' is radically different from ABA's approach (and what mainstream thinking holds up as 'progress' of 'treatment') of coercing kids into always masking (and then denying that that is what ABA is doing, adding gaslighting to their transgressions).

Autism Speaks and the medical community have decided that not making eye contact is a 'deficit' and advocate for 'correcting' it.

Ironically, given the false mythology about Autistic people 'lacking empathy' one key issue here is that non-Autistic people generally demonstrate a significant lack of empathy regarding Autistic people.

The more I look into these questions, the more dubious the critiques of Autistic rights are.

I really do think that bringing these arguments into the conversation, other than acknowledging them at the very end (as is done, for example, in the article about feminism), or as examples of what the Autistic Rights movement is in response to, is suggesting a false equivalence.

I also note that the article on racism seems not to have any contemporary viewpoints of racist viewpoints offered as a counterweight, although surely we are all aware that these viewpoints are very much out there.

There are extensive historical parallels with the ways that medicine and psychiatry have sought to define and limit women, black people in America, and the LGBQT+ communities. I do not believe that articles about any of the rights movements associated with those groups contains any sort of balance arguing on behalf of medicine and psychiatry other than in a historical context or at the very end of the article.

I haven't been able to find a clear statement around how wikipedia is supposed to balance 'neutral point of view' with human rights, but the pages I have looked at seem to indicate that there is generally acceptance that perspectives arguing against human rights need not be given equal billing, and can be marginalised.

So, no offense intended, but to me arguing that Simon Baron-Cohen should be placed on the same level as Damian Milton is like arguing that Andrew Tate should be seen as a legitimate counterpoint to Judith Butler on a page about gender theory. Zenmasterbear (talk) 12:55, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

OK, thanks. A simple direct statement there was very helpful and avoids any possible misunderstanding.

I would agree with you on all this. Except that I'm unaware of any 'Autistic Rights' movement – to the extent that a single group could be identified and given a capitalised proper name like that. I'm in the UK BTW, which might explain some differences. It's hard to look at the UK and identify anything concrete in that direction. Any broad movement towards 'autistic rights' is just part of a general liberal fluffiness. In particular it's now getting rolled up as part of LGBTQ acceptance (hey, it's all rainbows, innit?) and the two merged under one banner of 'neurodiversity'. Which is far from a good thing, on many levels. But here in the UK we're just emerging from 14 years of defunding healthcare, mental health funding is a distant memory and most people are just caught up in a sad daily grind to try and keep hold of any PIP funding. Maybe it'll get better now, but probably not. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:48, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi Andy, I'm also in the UK! I've been here since 2009, so totally agree with your points about what has been going on here. I'm in London, btw.

One of my recent edits was to remove the National Autistic Society from the list of Autistic Rights groups because they aren't. Zero Autistic leadership. OK with behavior therapy (actually involved with it in some schools they are connected to, or so I'm told). Mates with Simon Baron-Cohen. Complete rubbish. I think we should add in As I Am in Ireland as they are actually Autistic-founded and led.

There are a few groups around, some of them quite local. There is a group called the London Autism Group which was 4.5K members in their Facebook group. Which isn't exactly massive, but I mention them because their rules and guidelines are very much aligned with what I am saying.

One of the challenges, as I frequently point out to people, is that I think the Neurodivergent communities are going to be the last people on the planet to organise themselves. But that doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of people talking, doing advocacy, etc. Like me!

It should also be noted that Damian Milton is at the University of Kent. Robert Chapman is at Durham. There are some number of other Autistic academics doing welcome theory work here.

I think the broader case is that there is leadership in the theory world, and my experience has been that when I have interacted with other Autistic people and discussed these things they generally feel uncomfortable with what they have been told by doctors, and much happier with the Neurodiversity Paradigm framing.

I also think that there is a real problem with a lot of neurodivergent people being afraid to be out of the closet. Which makes them much less inclined to do anything overt around advocacy.

Anyway, glad that we are more or less on the same page. :) Zenmasterbear (talk) 16:48, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi! Apologies for my late reply—I wrote a comment but forgot to post it, and now it is long gone :(

Regarding your question about the page LGBT rights in the United States, I would be elated if we could get this article up to the same standard as that one! It presents facts on what is and what has happened without arguing for a side, while this article does not. If you feel like the LGBT article is too "positive", I urge you to either edit the page or leave a comment on that talk page.

Moving on. I see you have done extensive work on this article, and your initiative is very much appreciated! However, valuable and relevant information was removed during the process (e.g., information about the puzzle piece symbol, pathology paradigm, and controversy). I believe that the content could (and should) have been rewritten instead of completely cut.

You bring up the point of modeling this article after articles about human rights organizations/movements, which can be a good idea; however, the issue I see is that autism is not comparable with some of the groups brought up (e.g., black people, homosexuality, and women) since autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder that inherently involves disability—being black, gay, or female is not. The ARM can be considered related to a traditional human rights movement but should not be treated the same.

I do think that the other pages should be reworked to make it clear that the tension is one between people speaking from a human rights perspective, and others arguing from a medical viewpoint. Which, sure, it serves my advocacy goal of making the medical people look evil, but we don't offer balanced perspectives on misogyny and racism, right?

No, I think that would worsen the issue of biasing the reader to believe that there are only two sides to choose from. In the kindest way possible, I strongly suggest reading through Neutral Point of View FAQ to answer some of your questions and understand better what needs to be done and why.

You state that you have an agenda of making "medical people" look "evil". To keep Wikipedia as neutral as possible, I suggest you take extra caution when editing articles you are so closely related to. It is easy to confuse one's opinion as fact, especially when one is well-read on it.

Again, thank you for assisting in improving this article!

Kindly, Pinecone23 (talk) 00:15, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I have read the NPOV FAQ and I simply think it doesn't answer my questions. Let's start with the basics: does Wikipedia have a viewpoint on Human Rights? Is there a need to balance viewpoints between those who believe in Human Rights and those who don't? There is nothing in what I have seen in a number of pages about other human rights-related issues which suggests that there is a perceived need for an NPOV when we are talking about Human Rights.

If you think that there is evidence that NPOV is consistently applied throughout the human rights space, I am not seeing it.

As I have already brought up, as examples, there seems to be broad tolerance for presenting racism and sexism as bad, and anti-racism and feminism as good.

I think the fundamental disconnect here is that you are, in your comment, espousing a viewpoint which is itself inconsistent with both the Neurodiversity Paradigm and the concepts of Autistic Rights and Autistic Identity.

So, again, starting with basics, I completely reject your contention that there is no similarity between Autistic Rights, women's rights, LGBQT+ rights, Black rights, etc. In fact, this is exactly the point of the Autistic Rights movement: to assert the principle that Autistic Rights ARE human rights.

Who is it that defines autism as "a neurodevelopmental disorder that inherently involves disability?" Oh, hey, that's the medical community. Not the Autistic Community. That same medical community that defined women's dissatisfaction with their limited role in society as a disorder. That defined Black rage against the injustice of their limited role in society as a disorder. That defined being gay as a disorder.

I will also point out the strong correlations with the broader Disability Rights movement, who also generally reject the idea that the medical community has the right to define who they are and what they need.

So, coming back to that basic question, I am going to counter with this: taking the position that Autistic Rights are not human rights is NOT a neutral position. It is, actually, taking a side of the more powerful of the two forces and adding to the marginalisation of an already deeply marginalised community.

I understand that you think you are taking a neutral position, but you aren't. Here's an excerpt from the current academic project I am working on (which should be appearing as a book chapter next year in a volume of Philosophy of Autism):

"There is a fundamental incompatibility between Autistic identity and rights and the frame of Autism as a disorder advanced by the medical community and enshrined in the DSM. Autism cannot both be a natural and valuable way of being human on a par with all other forms of neurocognition, and be a developmental disorder. The belief that autism is a disorder has led to a variety of efforts to find explanations for what is wrong with Autistic people. These explanations often involve some framing which portrays Autistics as not only defective, but sub-human."

So, by stating that autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder you are rejecting the Neurodiversity Paradigm, and asserting that being Autitic means that there is something wrong with you. In exactly the same way that racists argue that being Black makes someone less human, misogynists argue that being a woman makes someone a lesser form of human, etc.

So, I don't think you can take a position that you are pushing for NPOV when your frame for doing this is rejecting the idea that Autistic brains are natural and normal, just different.

So I am completely fine with the idea that somewhere in Wikipedia there is a place for putting forth the medical view of Autism. And perhaps that place is here within a history section showing the evolution from the 1930s to today, and demonstrating the rise of the Neurodiversity Paradigm, and portraying the medical viewpoint as an anachronism that is on its way out (and, I would argue, largely based on bad science, which there will be at least one reference for once the project I am working on is published). But that is completely different from bringing the medical viewpoint to the forefront as the basic frame in which the conversation is being held. But presenting this viewpoint as the correct definition of what Autism is is deeply problematic.

The whole point of the Autistic Rights movement is a rejection of the medical frame, so it is senseless to base an article on the Autism Rights movement upon that frame.

Seriously, this reduces all of us working at the forefront of thinking about autism to a circus sideshow of freaks who don't understand that they are freaks. Because that is basically what that whole "neurodvelopmental disorder" thing says.

Let me give you another context on this. Every time someone hears that autism is a disorder it reinforces their belief that the way Autistic people behave and communicate is not just inferior to how other people communicate but is wrong and thus appropriate to correct. So every time an Autistic person gets expelled from school for 'behavior' (which happens something like 17 times as often to ND kids as it does to non-ND kids in America, and something like twice the rate here in the UK) it is because of the medical view of Autism. Every time an Autistic job applicant doesn't get hired because they didn't "make enough eye contact" in the interview, it is because of the medical view of Autism (one of the common defences of behavior therapy is that is teaching 'useful skills' such as increased eye contact, rather than us having a conversation about what is wrong with the assumption that all people should be expected to make eye contact). Every time Autistic people are disciplined or marginalised within a workplace because others don't understand the benefits of how our minds work (which, trust me, happens al the time), it is because of the medical view of Autism.

And we aren't just talking about autism, by the way. There's an argument to be made that Neurodivergence is actually a unifying thing and that all of the DSM labels are wrong, and all of us ND types have more in common than we have in difference. And at the same time have a distinct difference from the other 80% of the human race.

So I really believe you need to rethink your assumptions about what autism is, and where you learned that from. You also need to rethink your understanding about what a disability is, as you seem to think that Disability Rights are also not considered human rights, which places you at odds with things like the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

So, back to basics: I say that Autistic Rights are Human Rights. One of the general precepts about Human Rights is a right to self-determination. Which, if one accepts that Human Rights are not debatable, means that Autism is what the Autistic Community says it is, not what medicine says, not what parents say, what Autistic people say.

Just to be clear, none of this is meant to be defending the state of the article, or the need to make it better, but part of the muddle of the article is that the debate we are having right now seems not to have happened, so the people who put the article together felt the need to bring the advocacy onto the page itself.

I think it would be great if I could get the rest of you to understand that the positions you are taking are actually anti-human rights. Then perhaps we can work in the same direction to make this page a good representation of what the Autistic Rights movement is, what the history against which it is responding is, and the ways in which the current understanding (which you have espoused) is both deeply ingrained, harmful, and (very slowly) on its way out.

NPOV is great. Rejection of Human Rights can't be what you are trying to achieve. Zenmasterbear (talk) 09:24, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Puzzle piece

Opinions are divided on the use of a jigsaw-puzzle piece to represent autism, with some parents liking it, and the majority of autistic adults disliking it. Research has found it has negative connotations.

References

This image and its references were recently removed. I think it was indeed a bit messy how this sentiment was conveyed in the article but also that it shouldn't be axed entirely. Does anyone else have a good idea of how to fit this back in? Is it enough for another paragraph in the "perspectives" section? 1Veertje (talk) 13:13, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I completely agree. It should have been rewritten and not removed since the debate regarding the puzzle piece symbol is very relevant in the ARM. Kindly, Pinecone23 (talk) 13:12, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree too. This issue should be discussed, not ignored. Certainly restore the image and its caption. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:25, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Please read my long reply to Pinecone23 above. The original caption, by placing the view of non-Autistic parents on a par with Autistic views, is a violation of the Human Right of the Autistic community to self-determination.

I am fine with presenting the puzzle piece as an example of one of the ways in which the voices of parents have drowned out Autistic voices and thus denied us self-determination.

But this isn't something that the Autistic Community came up with. This isn't something that we choose to use to represent ourselves. Within the Autistic Community I don't think it is controversial, I think it is widely seen as annoying.

I also think that there is a broader issue which is the extent to which the medical community gaslights Autistic people and the extent to which this has led to internalised ableism. Which complicates conversations such as we are currently having because some Autistic people will reinforce the negative medical views as a result of this internalised ableism. So saying something about the "majority of Autistic adults" dislike the puzzle piece makes it sound like there is controversy, whereas I suspect the truth is closer to "The Autistic Community dislikes this symbol." Perhaps we can find something newer than 2015 to show a more up-to-date view on Autistic views on this symbol.

I would suggest looking at articles such as this to get a sense of newer thinking about internalised ableism:

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.1050897/full

"Using medicalized narratives of autism predicted higher odds of ableist cues compared to employing social model or neutral embodiment narratives."

I also found this one, which shows a link between Autistic internalised abelism and Inceldom, so this is a deeper problem than you might suspect:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01639625.2023.2268253

"Findings indicate that incels’ internalized ableism of autism is employed to categorically justify the victimhood and entitlement that grounds their ideology. This weaponization of autism is then used to promote ableism and networked misogyny." Zenmasterbear (talk) 09:40, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Autistic culture

Just noticed that some years ago, the autistic culture article was removed and merged into societal and cultural aspects of autism, an article on neurotypical society and how it deals with the problem of autism. This was done by one editor, not obviously identifying as autistic, and without any visible attempt at discussing the merge.

Which all seems just about typical, really. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:24, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I also note that this article also perpetuates the belief that both Autistic people, and parents of Autistic people, are different segments of the Autistic Community. But, as I think you and I have already discussed, to me this is like arguing that fathers of daughters are part of the community of women. Which is presumably not something that anyone seriously argues.

I trust that you already know my objections to placing the voices of non-Autistic parents on a par with self-determination of Autistic people.

I do agree that we need to engage with the conversation of who people like me are speaking for, but I believe (and I have a number of medium- to high-support Autistics in my circle) that my perspective is representing them better than the medical view, and have concrete examples of things the medical community gets harmfully wrong. Zenmasterbear (talk) 09:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi! This talk page is for discussing matters concerning the autism rights movement, not other subjects (as per WP:TALK#TOPIC). An appropriate place to voice your concern is on Talk:Societal and cultural aspects of autism :) Kindly, Pinecone23 (talk) 16:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)