This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Canada on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CanadaWikipedia:WikiProject CanadaTemplate:WikiProject CanadaCanada-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland articles
This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBT studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBT studiesLGBT articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of veganism and vegetarianism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Veganism and VegetarianismWikipedia:WikiProject Veganism and VegetarianismTemplate:WikiProject Veganism and VegetarianismVeganism and Vegetarianism articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History articles
This entire article goes to great lengths to be neutral on the topic of whether Barry was transgender, in particular by avoiding use of pronouns. This has been the subject of previous discussions on this page, and is largely based on the fact that pronoun use in sources is varied, and the time period in which the subject lived. I would therefore argue that to definitively list in the infobox that one of the things Barry is known for is "being an early Transgender person", is both against previous consensus, and against the sources. It seems particularly jarring to include something on the list that is never discussed in the article. It would seem reasonable to mention that Barry is known for being born female, and subsequently living as a man, however that is not the same as stating they were transgender. Barry has not been included in the category "Irish Transgender People" and has been included in "Historical figures with ambiguous or disputed gender identity" for a very good reason. I have attempted to remove this from the infobox twice, but have been reverted and requested to discuss, as I am now doing. 2A00:23C8:2C9F:3F01:B0A9:5CA2:6C47:5CBD (talk) 15:09, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
First off, thank you for taking this to the talkpage as I asked; I really appreciate that.
Considering the lengths to which the article goes to remain neutral on the subject of Barry's gender, what if we changed "(known for) being an early trans person" to something like "(known for) gender identity"? I agree that as a major portion of the article, it bears mentioning in the infobox. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 16:05, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In modern English the clear and concise way of saying that someone is born one gender and lived as another is "gender identity". I don't see why we can't use modern concepts in terminology to accurately (and succinctly, and as inoffensively as possible) describe experiences prior to the term's coining. The Curies died from radiation poisoning before we knew that was a thing and had words for it, Qin Shi Huang probably died from mercury poisoning before we knew that was a thing, etc. Just because there wasn't a word yet doesn't mean it didn't exist. So I support "gender identity" or "gender expression", or possibly "debated gender".
The problem here is that gender identity is an expression denoting an internal struggle with such. With Barry, the discussion, as shown in previous discussions on this page, often concerns whether that was the case for Barry, or whether they lived as the opposite gender for more practical reasons. I have looked through the other eleven article in the "Historical figures with ambiguous or disputed gender identity" category in the hopes of gaining some idea of suitable language. Of these, three have no infobox, and of the remaining eight, only one even has a 'known for' category. There, the term used is 'gender expression'. Of the options presented, this would be my preferred one. Personally, I would be happy to remove the category entirely from the infobox as unnecessary - occupation is listed, as is the name change. However, I do realise others will probably disagree, hence why I would opt for gender expression. 2A00:23C8:2C9F:3F01:EC53:E16C:6F8:269C (talk) 21:48, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As the first editor to undo the first bold edit, I do not know the best word or concise phrase. My concern is merely that something about the gender be in the infobox, since that topic is a substantial part of the article. Something better than nothing, while anyone interested word-smiths "something" into "something even better". DMacks (talk) 17:11, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think a better solution here would be to get rid of the infobox's "known for" line entirely. I've never seen the point of "known for" to begin with; that's not what infoboxen are for. They're for simple at-a-glance metadata. If people want to know why a person is notable, they should read the article. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe)21:55, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Agree that mentioning "trans" or "gender identity" is problematic. My first reaction when I saw that was to delete it, and then I noticed this discussion. As an experiment, since I like playing with words and coming up with apt expressions, I thought about it, and asked myself, "If there were to be a consensus to include something, what should it be?" And I came up with, spent over 50 years as a man, which mentions neither problematic term, while still getting the idea across. Just to be clear, I'm not sure I would vote in favor of that if this were an Rfc; I'd have to think about it further. Mathglot (talk) 22:04, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What pronouns did Nightingale actually use for Barry? Having both "She" and "He" be used in parenthesis makes it seem like the author simply swapped every use of one for the other, which is a strange choice. It probably would be preferable to simply quote her directly, perhaps with a (sic) after the first use of "he". 194.147.250.101 (talk) 10:25, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I added a source to the gender and personal life section of James Barry's wiki page stating that many consider James to be a Trans man/transmasculine figure nowadays but it was taken down not long after. I'd be open to discussing it if necessary. Thatstoic (talk) 16:39, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First, I note that there have been multiple discussions concerning Barry's gender identity. Editors engaging in this discussion should at least peruse what has already been written, which includes:
... self-published material such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs (as distinguished from newsblogs, above), content farms, Internet forum postings, and social media postings are largely not acceptable as sources. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.[1] Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent, reliable sources.
Google Scholar]. I do not think that Mumford can be considered an established subject-matter expert.
That said, I think that the article deserves a neutral, balanced, and duly weighted discussion of Barry's gender identity. It is clear that regardless of gender identity, British military & medical societies only permitted men to hold positions among their ranks. Barry certainly could not have been a British Army surgeon should Barry's gender status at birth had been known.
I think that there is an indication in the article that there were those in the army & in medicine who did know Barry's about this. The supposition that Barry desired to hide physical gender at death to protect those who knew & protected Barry is at least as plausible that Barry identified totally as a man.
.svg)
Works for me - Best solution ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 22:59, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
