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RfC closure review request at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RFC: The Telegraph on trans issues
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- WP:RSN (talk|edit|history|logs|links|cache|watch) (RfC closure in question) (Discussion with closer)
Closer: S Marshall (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Notified: User talk:S Marshall#Closure review
Background: There are two separate objections. One to the close as a whole, and the other to the third paragraph. We present both here, and ask editors to say whether they support overturning the whole close, only the third paragraph, or none.
Reasoning - Third paragraph: Overall, I am satisfied with this closure. However, the closer claims that the Telgraph has an unashamed embrace of the widely-debunked Litter boxes in schools hoax
, which is really misleading. That part of the debate centered over the Telegraph's unretracted claim that a student identified as a cat at a certain school (evinced by a viral argument in which a student brings up the "cat student" part as a rhetorical device), which is to be way less than what "embracing the litter boxes in schools hoax" implies; the Telegraph didn't even give that fact much weight anyways.
Now, someone has quoted this part of the closing summary on the Telegraph's WP:RSP entry, thus enabling this misleading part to inflict a lot more damage on those wishing to use RSP for a quick summary of existing consensus. If nothing else, I'd like at least this part to be amended.
As seen on the closer's talk page, at least 3 others are a lot more unsatisfied, believing that the closer falsely made claims of other misrepresentations being brought up and evinced. See BilledMammal's comment for details of this argument. Meanwhile, commenters here may want to consider the magnitude of !voters for deprecation who weren't convinced by the lack of factual misrepresentation. In the end, however, I personally am only concerned with removing or amending the misleading language I mention in the first paragraph. Aaron Liu (talk) 04:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note that by "first paragraph", I meant the problematic language that I bring up in the first paragraph of my statement, not the first paragraph of the actual close. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:43, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Reasoning - Close as a whole: There are two issues with this closure; the closer has substantially misread the discussion, and the closer is WP:INVOLVED.
The Telegraph's unashamed embrace of the widely-debunked Litter boxes in schools hoax is discussed at great length. The disputed article, here, is exhaustively dissected by the community, and, on the basis of scholarly sources and an Ofsted report, various misrepresentations contained in that article are noted. It's questioned whether these are really "misrepresentations" or confusions between fact and opinion. Towards the end of this, the "generally reliable" camp is reduced to a bold-face statement that reliable sources are allowed to make mistakes, which I receive as a concession that the article is misleading. And if the Telegraph has published a correction, then the "generally reliable" camp hasn't unearthed it.
This quoted paragraph, which is the only part of the close which focuses on the arguments made, is rife with inaccuracies. They say that various misrepresentations contained in that article are noted
, but as far as I can tell only two misrepresentations were alleged; that the Telegraph endorsed the litter boxes in schools hoax, and that the Telegraph falsely claimed that a student identified as a cat.
The closer says that these allegations are proven on the basis of scholarly sources and an Ofsted report
, but this in incorrect. As far as I can tell no scholarly papers were presented in relation to these allegations, and while the Ofsted report was presented, it was presented by those arguing "generally reliable", who pointed out that it took no position on whether a student actually identified as a cat.
They also interpret the consensus of the discussion on this as that the Telegraph has unashamed[ly] embrace[d] the widely-debunked Litter boxes in schools hoax
. This is not a reasonable reading of discussion; editors rejected that claim on the basis that the Telegraph explicitly called claims of litter boxes in schools a hoax, and this counter-argument was endorsed by the majority of editors who commented on the claim.
Finally, they say towards the end of this, the "generally reliable" camp is reduced to a bold-face statement that reliable sources are allowed to make mistakes
. While a few editors on both the "generally reliable" and "generally unreliable" side said that reliable sources are allowed to make occasional mistakes, it doesn't appear that this statement was especially common among the "generally reliable" camp, and to interpret this statement as meaning that those editors are recognizing that this specific example is a mistake is to read something into these !votes that is not there.
Given the number of factual errors made in the closer's summary of the discussion it is clear that it needs to be overturned and reclosed. This is particularly true because the closer is WP:INVOLVED, having argued in a previous discussion at RSN about the Telegraph in relation to politics that, while they considered it reliable for that sub-topic, it employs people with ghastly and abhorrent opinions
. BilledMammal (talk) 05:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Closer (Telegraph)
This is a no-consensus close, and there are two possible approaches to no-consensus. The first is the one usual at WP:AFD, where no consensus means no change. AFD puts the burden to achieve consensus on the pro-change side. User:Seraphimblade, below, clearly sees the discussion as being in this category.
The second is the one usual with content decisions, at WP:ONUS. ONUS puts the burden to achieve consensus on the anti-change side, and authorizes the removal of disputed material.
In closing this, I decided that the community doesn't have widespread confidence in the Daily Telegraph's coverage of trans issues, and therefore it shouldn't be listed as generally reliable. In other words, I decided to treat this as more like a content decision governed by WP:ONUS than a procedural one governed by AFD consensus. In doing this, I removed the first mover advantage that the "generally reliable" side expected and I think relied on. At issue here is the question: was I right to do that? If you think I was, you belong in the "endorse" column, and if you think I wasn't, then you belong at "overturn".
It's very arguable, and I won't object if the community overturns me here on that point. But I do think I'm right. My position is that we shouldn't be listing sources as generally reliable when the community has real doubts.
The claim that I was INVOLVED is much less arguable. INVOLVED means you can't close a discussion you've voted in, and it means you can't close a discussion about an article you've made non-trivial edits to. And that's all it says. If you stretch INVOLVED to allow claims that you're INVOLVED because you participated in a tangentially-related RFC on RSN the thick end of a year ago on the other side of the debate from your closure, then you've pulled it a long way out of its original shape, haven't you?
We as a community need to clarify what's INVOLVED and what isn't, because I've noticed that pretty much every time you make a disputed closure someone mentions it.—S Marshall T/C 07:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think you misread INVOLVED. It’s not about single discussions, but disputes as a whole - and you’ve been involved in disputes in relation to the reliability of The Telegraph, and given the part of your comment I quoted you clearly also have strong feelings on the subject. BilledMammal (talk) 07:35, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- No, I don't have strong feelings about the Daily Telegraph. It employs people with ghastly and abhorrent opinions, and I certainly do have my views and opinions about some of those people, but that's not what's at issue here and the Daily Telegraph as a whole isn't a subject I care about.—S Marshall T/C 07:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's not what ONUS says - it doesn't put the burden on "the anti-change side". It puts the burden on "those seeking to include disputed content". "Seeking to include" means the ones adding it. It doesn't say "seeking to include or retain". DeCausa (talk) 13:23, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- The policy issue is where I said this: My position is that we shouldn't be listing sources as generally reliable when the community has real doubts.—S Marshall T/C 13:46, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't have a view on that. I was just pointing out you've misread ONUS. DeCausa (talk) 15:51, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- The policy issue is where I said this: My position is that we shouldn't be listing sources as generally reliable when the community has real doubts.—S Marshall T/C 13:46, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- S Marshall, I had not seen the indications of your involvement in this close, but you have even shown those here. WP:BADNAC states as the first reversal reason for a bad non-admin closure:
The non-admin has demonstrated a potential conflict of interest, or lack of impartiality, by having expressed an opinion in the discussion or being otherwise involved, with the exception of closing their own withdrawn nomination as a speedy keep[a] when all other viewpoints expressed were for keeping as well.
You have indicated an opinion even here, and did so beforehand as well. So I will give you the option of reversing your closure, or I will, but it's going to be reversed. A discussion like this should be closed by an impartial closer, or perhaps a panel of them, but you have shown yourself not to be that. If you do not reverse your closure, I will do so. Seraphimblade Talk to me 09:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- That would be an unwise and deeply controversial thing to do. I am not involved in this matter. At issue is whether the Daily Telegraph is reliable for statements about trans issues. I have never expressed a view on that. Historically I did express a view on the Daily Telegraph's reliability on politics. I said it was reliable for that, and it remains my view that the Daily Telegraph is reliable for politics. This doesn't make me involved in its reliability on other things and you do not get to unilaterally reverse a RFC close on your own judgment. That is not one of the powers the community has granted sysops.—S Marshall T/C 09:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Either reverse or don't, coercing the closure to do so with an ultimatum is not ok. CNC (talk) 10:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- That is, in fact, one of the powers the community has granted sysops. WP:NAC specifically states that NACs are not appropriate in either of the following two situations:
The non-admin has demonstrated a potential conflict of interest, or lack of impartiality, by having expressed an opinion in the discussion or being otherwise involved, with the exception of closing their own withdrawn nomination as a speedy keep[a] when all other viewpoints expressed were for keeping as well.
, andThe outcome is a close call (especially where there are several valid outcomes) or likely to be controversial.
This closure at least arguably fails the two, but it dead clearly fails the second. It further states:Per Wikipedia:Deletion process § Non-administrators closing discussions,[b] inappropriate early closures of deletion debates may either be reopened by an uninvolved administrator
. So, I intend to reopen it. For clarity, I don't intend to close it; I will leave that to others. I don't have a preferred outcome here, but this close was not appropriate. Seraphimblade Talk to me 10:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- You won't do that without pushback. This wasn't a deletion decision so you don't get to rely on rules about deletion decisions, and I'm rather self-evidently not involved. Politics is not gender.—S Marshall T/C 10:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't imagine I'll do it without pushback or without having people shouting at me. I've got a pretty thick skin by now. But I still think it needs to be done. Seraphimblade Talk to me 11:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've reopened the discussion. As above, I do not intend to close it or in any way be involved with deciding on the outcome, but that outcome does need to be decided properly. Seraphimblade Talk to me 11:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturning the close might be premature. Is it normal to short circuit an AN RFC review in such a manner? Doesn't seem very efficient to have a big discussion here if the outcome is already ordained. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Do you also believe, per WP:NAC, that all of S Marshall's RfC closes on controversial topics should be reverted? Do you really want to set the precedent that all controversial closes must be handled by administrators? Do you think we have that capacity? I think this is a spectacularly bad exercise of judgement. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:23, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- So you've overturned and relisted as an involved admin in this request, because you deem the closure was involved? I can't be the only one who sees the irony in this. CNC (talk) 11:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I saw a supervote/BADNAC here, and overturned it. I think that's what should be done. I wasn't involved in the discussion; I was upset by it because of how clearly unacceptable it was. That close didn't summarize the opinions in the discussions, it expressed the opinions of the closer. If that's not a bad close, I don't know what is. Seraphimblade Talk to me 11:30, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- And why do you think your 'upset' trumps the opinions of other editors who have expressed support for this close, or indeed those that agree that it should be overturned, but have decided to express that through discussion? This was very poor judgement. – Joe (talk) 11:33, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- BADNAC or not, your decision makes a mockery of this RfC review process. You expressed your opinion below to overturn and are clearly involved in the dispute here, then went ahead and supervoted the outcome. Being upset is no excuse for this, it's shocking. CNC (talk) 11:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I saw a supervote/BADNAC here, and overturned it. I think that's what should be done. I wasn't involved in the discussion; I was upset by it because of how clearly unacceptable it was. That close didn't summarize the opinions in the discussions, it expressed the opinions of the closer. If that's not a bad close, I don't know what is. Seraphimblade Talk to me 11:30, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've reopened the discussion. As above, I do not intend to close it or in any way be involved with deciding on the outcome, but that outcome does need to be decided properly. Seraphimblade Talk to me 11:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't imagine I'll do it without pushback or without having people shouting at me. I've got a pretty thick skin by now. But I still think it needs to be done. Seraphimblade Talk to me 11:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- You won't do that without pushback. This wasn't a deletion decision so you don't get to rely on rules about deletion decisions, and I'm rather self-evidently not involved. Politics is not gender.—S Marshall T/C 10:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- That is, in fact, one of the powers the community has granted sysops. WP:NAC specifically states that NACs are not appropriate in either of the following two situations:
- @Seraphimblade: Please restore the close and follow process here. voorts (talk/contributions) 12:11, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- S Marshall, I had not seen the indications of your involvement in this close, but you have even shown those here. WP:BADNAC states as the first reversal reason for a bad non-admin closure:
- I'm stunned, Seraphimblade. Not only did you choose to ignore all the editors telling you that this was a bad idea and do it anyway, but you're now edit warring over it. Do you think this is how contentious decisions should be carried out? – Joe (talk) 11:44, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- The close review shouldn't be closed. Seraphimblade should either do the right thing or a new discussion should he started here about the unilaterak overturn. voorts (talk/contributions) 12:14, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Administrator Seraphimblade's misuse of the rollback tool is noted here. Per WP:ROLLBACKUSE, points 1–5 obviously don't apply, and 6 cannot, as Seraphimblade failed to provide a
custom edit summary explaining the reason for reverting the changes
. Not a good look, tbh, either in terms of accountability or conduct. ——Serial Number 54129 12:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- I've raised Seraphimblade's action at Wikipedia:Administrative action review#Unilateral overturning of a close by Seraphimblade. I'm not sure what to do about this discussion now. – Joe (talk) 13:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think this mini discussion ought to be closed. Peopld can discuss at the review. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've raised Seraphimblade's action at Wikipedia:Administrative action review#Unilateral overturning of a close by Seraphimblade. I'm not sure what to do about this discussion now. – Joe (talk) 13:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Non-participants (Telegraph)
- Overturn. Firstly, the close strikes me as making an argument rather than summarizing them, which raises at least substantial concerns of a supervote. But, that aside, the close seems to be a "no consensus", which means no change to the status quo, yet it then calls for a change in the status quo. Given these concerns and the incoherent nature in general, I think the discussion needs to be reclosed in terms of first, determining if there is any consensus whatsoever (if "no", no changes are made), and, if so, what it is and why. While I have not exhaustively reviewed the discussion, I did take a look over it, and I don't think a clear consensus could be discerned from it, so I think a "no consensus, therefore no change" closure would be the most appropriate result. But certainly "No consensus, but make a change anyway" is an incoherent one, so that can't stand. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. Responding to
I decided to treat this as more like a content decision governed by WP:ONUS than a procedural one governed by AFD consensus. In doing this, I removed the first mover advantage that the "generally reliable" side expected and I think relied on. At issue here is the question: was I right to do that?
It is my opinion that "no consensus" often means "no change", even outside of AFD. But RSP is a clear exception to this, as stated in WP:MREL.No consensus, unclear, or additional considerations apply
. The words "no consensus" are literally in the title/definition of what is frequently "option 2" in RSN RFCs. Unfortunately, my opinion on this does not add clarity here, but instead suggests that an RFC like this one, which had a lot of option 1 and option 3 !votes, could reasonably be closed as "no consensus" and become a consensus for option 2. Because of the murkiness of all of this, I leave this as a comment rather than a bolded endorse/overturn, and I simply leave this as food for thought. –Novem Linguae (talk) 08:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- Agree. RSP is simply a place where summaries of discussions are documented, not much else. We can't omit NC discussions because there was previously consensus for X, Y and Z. Whether previous consensus should remain, or be prioritised over a NC discussion, is another topic that effects more RSP entries than just The Telegraph. CNC (talk) 09:47, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- As to where the boundary of WP:INVOLVED is, it is my opinion that one is involved if reasonable editors perceive the closer as having an obvious bias. Even if the closer is not actually biased, the perception of such is important, imo. Is S Marshall involved here? I don't know. It will depend on if more than a couple editors feel that he has an obvious bias. A couple clearly think he does, but I think more input is needed before deciding that. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:28, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- While your obviously entitled to your opinion, INVOLVED is not based on having a perceived bias. You have to prove that bias makes the closure impartial based on disputes or conflicts with other editors within that topic area. CNC (talk) 11:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse close, but can understand re-listing in order to be re-closed by a group of editors to satisfy all these "extra" issues, specifically regarding the closing summary. From a look at the discussion, I don't think any other close could have reasonably ascertained that there was consensus for GR or GU while remaining impartial, and thus no consensus was the correct assessment by default. I found the closing rationale very reasonable, even if I do understand concerns regarding some of the wording. In my opinion the weight given to the dispute of reliability in the closing summary otherwise makes sense. If the RfC failed to gain consensus, it makes sense to use more words explaining why there wasn't consensus from those who disputed reliability, as opposed to elaborating on why editors believed it was reliable, similar to the closure summaries of other contentious RfCs. Concerns over the closure's involvement otherwise need to be supported with diffs, specifically of the closure's involvement in disputes regarding The Telegraph or trans issues, otherwise this "fall back" argument is meaningless. CNC (talk) 10:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- @CommunityNotesContributor: I think you overlooked this diff I provided - sorry, I should have made its presence clearer rather than including it as a WP:EASTEREGG. BilledMammal (talk) 10:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- So no dispute then? Having an opinion is not being involved. Anything else? CNC (talk) 10:13, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- The dispute was regarding the reliability of the Telegraph. Having an opinion made them a party to that dispute. Editors who are parties to a dispute are forbidden from closing discussions broadly related to that dispute, and whether the Telegraph is reliable for politics is a dispute very closely related to whether it is reliable for trans issues. BilledMammal (talk) 10:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
"Having an opinion made them a party to that dispute."
That's a huge stretch. CNC (talk) 10:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- To clarify; they expressed their opinion while participating in the dispute. That makes them a party to the dispute. BilledMammal (talk) 10:27, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- The discussion was
"What do we think of the reliability of this story"
, the editor provided an opinion on that. They didn't engage in any dispute with other editors, ie argue with other editors, it was an isolated comment. To clarify, this discussion is a dispute, because we are arguing. See the difference? CNC (talk) 10:33, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- The discussion was
Reliability of the Daily Telegraph for politics?
, and the notion that it is only a dispute if there is arguing is... novel. Interpreting it that way would mean that editors would even be able to close RfC's they participate in, so long as they don't engage in any back-and-forth discussion. - This discussion is getting a little deep, so I'll step out now. BilledMammal (talk) 10:40, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- WP:INVOLVED does have novel wording:
" Involvement is construed broadly by the community to include current or past conflicts with an editor (or editors), and disputes on topics,..."
. This is not a "conflict" with other editors, nor based on trans topics. The wording at WP:CLOSE arguably has a higher bar for contesting:"if the closing editor may have become inextricably involved through previous experience in the conflict area"
, so a throwaway opinion isn't going to cut it here. CNC (talk) 11:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- WP:INVOLVED does have novel wording:
- The discussion was
- The discussion was
- To clarify; they expressed their opinion while participating in the dispute. That makes them a party to the dispute. BilledMammal (talk) 10:27, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- The dispute was regarding the reliability of the Telegraph. Having an opinion made them a party to that dispute. Editors who are parties to a dispute are forbidden from closing discussions broadly related to that dispute, and whether the Telegraph is reliable for politics is a dispute very closely related to whether it is reliable for trans issues. BilledMammal (talk) 10:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- So no dispute then? Having an opinion is not being involved. Anything else? CNC (talk) 10:13, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- @CommunityNotesContributor: I think you overlooked this diff I provided - sorry, I should have made its presence clearer rather than including it as a WP:EASTEREGG. BilledMammal (talk) 10:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. I found the close very reasoned. I can understand that some may take issue with the description "unashamed embrace", however the crux of the issue is that the paper published a hoax in the area of gender identity and when it was demonstrated that it was hoax they didn't publish a correction. To me that seems perfectly relevant to the question of whether The Telegraph is reliable on trans issues regardless of the specific wording. TarnishedPathtalk 11:35, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- What hoax are you referring to with
the paper published a hoax
? BilledMammal (talk) 11:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- The kitty litter hoax, the claim that accommodations were being made to children who identified as animals. Is there something else that the close referred to as an "unashamed embrace" of? TarnishedPathtalk 03:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- The paper did not make that claim, it reported on others making that claim, cited to them. It did not report that as fact. We don't expect reliable sources to avoid reporting on others spouting falsehoods - otherwise every US news source that has reported on all of Trump's falsehoods would have to be unreliable, since they reported them! -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 04:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- (however many do expect newspapers to issue updates when falsehoods come to light, but we're going off-topic here. point is, that part of the close unduly exaggerates the consensus on the nature of the issue discussed.) Aaron Liu (talk) 04:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- There was a recent discussion about Al Jazeera that many of the editors commenting here had to have seen (and quite a few participated in) where the conclusion I observed is that is not expected for "news" that was accurate at the time and cited/attributed to another source that later updates itself - so long as their future news stories are in compliance with the updated information. I agree with you that it unduly exaggerates the amount of consensus for "unreliable" to make it a "no consensus". -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 05:34, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- (however many do expect newspapers to issue updates when falsehoods come to light, but we're going off-topic here. point is, that part of the close unduly exaggerates the consensus on the nature of the issue discussed.) Aaron Liu (talk) 04:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- The paper did not make that claim, it reported on others making that claim, cited to them. It did not report that as fact. We don't expect reliable sources to avoid reporting on others spouting falsehoods - otherwise every US news source that has reported on all of Trump's falsehoods would have to be unreliable, since they reported them! -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 04:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- The kitty litter hoax, the claim that accommodations were being made to children who identified as animals. Is there something else that the close referred to as an "unashamed embrace" of? TarnishedPathtalk 03:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- That the newspaper published a hoax is not a summary of the discussion. It is one contention that was strongly disputed within the discussion. The term "unashamed embrace" shouldn't be an issue for some, it should be an issue for all, as it wasn't even argued during the discussion. Editors who claimed the Telegraph was knowingly printing false material also often argued that they snuck it in through quotes by dubious actors rather than putting it in their own voice. Samuelshraga (talk) 14:35, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- What hoax are you referring to with
- Overturn. Closer says that WP:ONUS applies to editors who object to adding a rule so "those who want the status quo need to achieve positive consensus for it", it will be good if admins comment that's not how it works. It's fine to agree with the minority that the cat affair justifies action but that's a vote not an evaluation of consensus. However, adding twaddle to the essay-class WP:RSP page needn't concern admins. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 13:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn. Given that the closer assessed this as "no consensus", the correct and only outcome is to retain the status quo, which is that the Telegraph is "generally reliable". The spiel above about WP:ONUS mandating some other outcome is not supported by WP guidelines and effectively takes the close into WP:SUPERVOTE territory. This should be reclosed properly, with no consensus meaning no change to the status. That's not to say we would always have to follow the Telegraph on trans issues, of course, ONUS does apply at individual article level across the project, and where claims in the Telegraph represent WP:FRINGE viewpoints when compared with other sources, it's correct to ignore them. That's a far cry from there being a consensus to label it as "reliability disputed" though. — Amakuru (talk) 14:52, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note that "no consensus" for a source evaluation brings it into WP:MREL, its own status for "no consensus". Aaron Liu (talk) 15:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- That would apply if the matter had never been discussed before, with no status quo, and this were to establish a new position. But that's not the case. There was an RFC in 2022 which concluded that the Telegraph is generally reliable. This RFC here sought to amend that prior consensus and add a new caveat for trans issues specifically. Altering previous consensus requires consensus, not a lack thereof. Lack of consensus means retain status quo. — Amakuru (talk) 16:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Lack of consensus that a source is generally reliable means that it isn't generally reliable. Thryduulf (talk) 16:13, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- It means nothing of the sort. It means nobody could agree if it is or not. You don't get to "win" the argument by default just because some people agreed with you and some people didn't. This principle would also apply if it had previously been declared unreliable. The status quo remains. — Amakuru (talk) 16:15, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- If nobody can agree if it is or is not reliable, then it can't, by definition, be generally reliable. WP:RSP#Legend defines "Generally reliable" as
Editors show consensus that the source is reliable in most cases
Thryduulf (talk) 16:18, 9 July 2024 (UTC) - The status quo of RSP is categorising discussions based on consensus or lack of. CNC (talk) 16:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- If nobody can agree if it is or is not reliable, then it can't, by definition, be generally reliable. WP:RSP#Legend defines "Generally reliable" as
- It means nothing of the sort. It means nobody could agree if it is or not. You don't get to "win" the argument by default just because some people agreed with you and some people didn't. This principle would also apply if it had previously been declared unreliable. The status quo remains. — Amakuru (talk) 16:15, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's been referenced before but RSP is a summary of discussions. If there is no consensus over the reliability of a source, or over a particular topic from a source, then it will be documented as such. The reliability of The Telegraph was otherwise previously discussed prior to the RfC. What your implying has broader implications on RSP categorisation. CNC (talk) 16:17, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Lack of consensus that a source is generally reliable means that it isn't generally reliable. Thryduulf (talk) 16:13, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- That would apply if the matter had never been discussed before, with no status quo, and this were to establish a new position. But that's not the case. There was an RFC in 2022 which concluded that the Telegraph is generally reliable. This RFC here sought to amend that prior consensus and add a new caveat for trans issues specifically. Altering previous consensus requires consensus, not a lack thereof. Lack of consensus means retain status quo. — Amakuru (talk) 16:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note that "no consensus" for a source evaluation brings it into WP:MREL, its own status for "no consensus". Aaron Liu (talk) 15:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn. Potential involvement aside, the bit about WP:ONUS on the closer's talk page takes this into supervote territory. I will leave it to the new closer or closers to decide the outcome. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 15:28, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. This was a good close. Firstly I don't see how a single past opinion about a separate topic that The Daily Telegraph covers would then indicate the closer is therefore WP:INVOLVED in this topical circumstance (i.e., this single opinion doesn't make the closer "inextricably involved... in the conflict area"). This is especially true in this case, where the closer's broader comment was essentially about the apparent ability of the newspaper to still remain factual despite the individual biases of of a subset of employees. Secondly, about the close itself, the legend for Perennial Sources list entries labeled "
No consensus, unclear, or additional considerations apply
" (i.e. Option 2 of RSN RfCs) provides the relevant detail for evaluation here: "Editors may not have been able to agree on whether the source is appropriate, or may have agreed that it is only reliable in certain circumstances.
" The discussion in this RfC clearly fits the description of "may not have been able to agree on whether the source is appropriate". If discussions are split between Options 1 and 3 (or 4) and no consensus emerges, as was the case here, the discussion then pretty clearly renders into Option 2 territory when it's time to close. It's clear to me the Option 2 of active RfC discussions is for considering the "unclear" and "additional considerations apply" aspects of the label during such discussions, but needn't be explicitly invoked at a level that cements 'consensus for a lack of consensus', so to speak, for it to be the correct outcome. This case shakes out as no consensus about the reliability of The Daily Telegraph for the subject of trans issues, exactly as the closer found it. --Pinchme123 (talk) 20:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC) - Endorse as far as I am concerned, closes deserve some minor presumption of regularity, and there should be a showing of some meaningful issue or bias before we go about overturning one. I see nothing of the sort here, and the close strikes me as well within the range of possibilities that a reasonable closer might choose. Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 21:18, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn. The closer's summary is rife with misleading claims and analysis, along with real concerns of a supervote, as many others have pointed out at length. I'd like to put specific emphasis on what the closer should have, but did not mention in the summary:
- 1. The sheer amount of sensationalist claims the original poster had listed that went on to be directly and irrefutibly shown to be either false or misleading. See discussion there at length
- 2. Directly following that, a re-evaluation of the merits of the one remaining possible 'single mistake' (the child's identity as a cat) to even possibly warrant this RfD to result in a characterization of 'reliability disputed'
- 3. An accurate presentation of the terms of that misrepresented 'one mistake', which was revealed in discussion to be a mistaken assumption based on information the paper was provided with
- 4. The major amount of support in the 'unreliable' camp that were either based on non-arguments or used language suggesting they had taken all of the original poster's assertions at face value. A sampling: "
it was extensively proven that the Telegraph propagates blatant lies
"; another user says "we should never use a newspaper for almost anything
"; yet another states "the Telegraph is not a source of expert opinion on this topic... there's no reason Wikipedia needs to publish anything they say about it
". There are many more !votes that are non-starters when you read the reasoning.
- The closer did not recognize the importance of depreciating the value of any editors' votes that were not based on any evidence discussed in the RfC, besides the other issues raised above and by other editors. I hope the next close will be fairer. JoeJShmo💌 06:26, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn While I think I agree with the closer, the way it was phrased makes it fairly clear this was a supervote at best. Lulfas (talk) 17:57, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn First, I don't find the WP:INVOLVED argument compelling. Commenting on a previous RFC about the Telegraph's reliability as a whole is approaching the line, but I think it is firmly on the "acceptable" side of it. Reading the close itself, I see substantial defects on the merits to the point that it looks like a WP:SUPERVOTE. The close seems to take assertions made by the 3/4 camp at face value (especially the litter box thing, which was a clear point of disagreement as to what facts they were stating), while minimizing or totally glossing over arguments made by the 1 !voters, especially the comprehensive refutations of the RFC basis by Chess. The weighting applied to these arguments is also strange. Editors on both sides made some poor arguments, but a lot of the 3 and most of the 4 !voters made arguments that were weak or totally irrelevant. Those addressing the opinion pieces or "platforming" certain views mean nothing for reliability, since those are already unusable for statements of fact. Some accepted the litter box claims at face value, totally ignoring the refutations to them much like the close itself did. Other !votes were bare statements of opinion, such as
I'd barely trust the Telegraph with the weather, let alone any politics, and least of all any kind of gender politics
. When these non-arguments are down-weighted or discarded, I believe the consensus becomes very clear. I would have closed it as WP:GREL, but with an additional note that while factually reliable, there was consensus that their coverage of trans issues is biased and special attention should be given to WP:DUE. The WordsmithTalk to me 18:29, 10 July 2024 (UTC)- But that clearly would have been a WP:SUPERVOTE, since there obviously wasn't a consensus in the discussion. The idea that a "refutation" must be accepted by everyone else who !votes subsequent to it is obviously silly. The "refutation" just wasn't convincing to many editors. Loki (talk) 18:38, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- It was not convincing or not - many editors chose to ignore it completely, rather than explain why they were not convinced. As I stated elsewhere, if an editor wishes to express their view that a refutation is not convincing, that is fine and could be given weight as appropriate, as the person you replied to did. But if all they do is ignore it, their vote must be seen in light of the fact they are ignoring the discussion on it, and only commenting with their opinion. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 19:02, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- In which case we must also regard every comment that does not explicitly mention every piece of evidence or (claimed) refutations of that evidence as ignoring that evidence and/or refutation. i.e. the same standards must be applied to everyone. Thryduulf (talk) 19:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think it is especially controversial to say that a !vote that considers the counter arguments and rejects them is stronger than one that simply repeats the claims with nothing showing they've done any actual analysis of it. I didn't say those should be totally ignored, just weighted accordingly. The WordsmithTalk to me 19:11, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think it's more controversial than you think it is. Imagine the following two !votes:
- Support I think we should only include a mention of Darwin's Origin of Species, because of the many reliable sources that support it, and the zero that support the "aliens did it" hypothesis advanced by the OP. - Alice
- Oppose Alice claims that no reliable sources support the "aliens did it" hypothesis, but what about "Aliens Did It" by Quacky McQuackerson? - Bob
- Which of these !votes is stronger? Which should be weighted more highly? Loki (talk) 19:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Considering that in this hypothetical you're "Bob" (
Alice claims that the Telegraph doesn't endorse the Litter boxes in schools hoax, but what about this article where they call it a hoax?
), that isn't exactly a counter-argument. BilledMammal (talk) 20:00, 10 July 2024 (UTC) - You are indeed Bob in this case. You are saying that the source says something that everyone with eyes can read for themselves is not what the source is saying. You’ve claimed that the source “states that the litter boxes in schools happened” - but that was clearly refuted as they merely reported on the hoax that was stated by others, with attribution. Ditto for the other things you’ve claimed. To be quite blunt, when an editor is as misleading as your initial claims in the RfC are, and they are so clearly refuted that there is virtually nobody arguing after the fact that isn’t equally misrepresenting the sources, all of the !votes based on the misrepresentation need to be weighted heavily down, or given no weight if they provide zero other justification than the misinformation.
- In other words, we should not be in the habit of rewarding people who promote quackery (such as Bob), or who promote misinformation/misleading reading of a source to try and “win” the argument (like you did). -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- You say "everyone with eyes" agrees with you, ignoring the many people with eyes who disagree with you. Loki (talk) 20:15, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- ...which is what many option 3 !voters did. The difference between these sides which both didn't mention refutations is that more option 3 !voters often did not provide refutations. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- And what I'm saying here is that a weak refutation should not be more heavily weighted than no refutation. If anything it should be weighted less, because it reveals a fundamentally weak argument. Loki (talk) 20:20, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- That’s absolutely absurd. Someone who is expressing their opinion with reasoning/rationale will always be weighted higher than someone who drives by and “throws a !vote at the house”. You claim it’s weak, then care to explain why a majority of “non drive by” editors after the refutation agreed with it? And of those who didn’t, very few bothered to actually explain what they found wrong with it? Those two things are, in fact, the sign of a strong refutation. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I disagree wholeheartedly. This contention seems entirely misconceived to me, and also somewhat oppressive. Giving full reasons can't be mandatory. If I'm at AfD, I shouldn't have to type out, "I concur with the nominator. I too have carried out an exhausive search for sources and I too have not been able to locate an acceptable one. Like the nominator, I don't agree that this person's blog is a useful source for their biography." I should be allowed to type "Delete per nom" in the happy expectation that my contribution will get full weight. People must not be made to feel they have to type out arguments that have already been well made, in full, before their view is counted.—S Marshall T/C 22:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- It depends on the context. If at the AfD the nom says "Fails GNG", and an editor subsequently posts a list of sources, saying "per nom" is a very weak argument - you need to address the rebuttal.
- It's similar here. If you say "Per Loki", you need to address the rebuttal that argued Loki not only failed to provide sources for the claim that the Telegraph endorsed the Litter boxes in schools hoax, but that one of the sources they did provide explicitly called it a hoax. BilledMammal (talk) 22:27, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's long been understood that WP:PERX is a weak argument. While WP:ATA is an essay, it has broad community support. As mentioned on that page,
Where reasonable counter-arguments to the nomination have been raised in the discussion, you may wish to explain how you justify your support in your own words and, where possible, marshalling your own evidence.
At least giving some evidence that you've read the opposing arguments and disagree with them shows that you've done some kind of analysis. If we don't weigh arguments according to how comprehensive, informed, and well-grounded they are then all we have left is a headcount. To also quote from WP:CRFC,The degree to which arguments have been rebutted by other editors may be relevant, as long as the rebuttals themselves carry sufficient weight. If one group is responding directly to the other’s arguments but the other isn’t, that may be relevant to determining which group has better reasoning.
The WordsmithTalk to me 23:38, 10 July 2024 (UTC) - When the arguments they are citing have been solidly refuted with significant agreement with that refutation, then yes, the editor should be expected to justify their agreement or have their argument down weighted accordingly. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 23:50, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Considering almost all of nom's original arguments were at best misrepresentations, votes along the lines of "delete per nom" should've been- and should be- majority depreciated. The litter box hoax was a non starter, and nom was reduced to "claims along the lines of a litter box hoax". Further claims were shown to be non-starters as well. Any vote relying on nom's presentation of the issues stated quite possibly could've been completely disqualified, and at the least depreciated. JoeJShmo💌 01:21, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- @S Marshall, is your reading of the discussion that Loki's opening stood more or less unrebutted? Nominator brought 14 links to the Telegraph in their nomination. 9 were described by nominator as
directly saying false things
. All 9 by my count conclusively refuted farther in the discussion as nothing more than biased presentation at most. - The 5 others were to do with the cat-gate at Rye College. Nominator brought two articles from the Guardian and Pink News to show Telegraph coverage was
proven false
. In fact, while the Pink News at least states that the Telegraph's reporting is false, it certainly doesn't prove it. The Guardian simply carries the school's denial that a student identifies as a cat. - And then the rub. No one has actually proven that a student did or didn't identify as a cat. But editors continue to dispute whether demonstrating factual inaccuracy is an important part of a finding of unreliability, so there's that.
- Nominator also brought up some academic sources which I haven't had time to look into as deeply but which were strongly contested in discussion (and which you didn't mention in your close anyway).
- So out of 14 Telegraph articles, and 2 articles in the Guardian and Pink News, nominator managed to directly misrepresent the content of 11, and there is, at the very least, a significant case that nominator directly misrepresented the content of the other 5. This was spelled out clearly early in the discussion. But you think "Per Loki" and "Per Chess" should be given equal weight, because Loki actually made the misrepresentations, while Chess only pointed them out? Samuelshraga (talk) 06:02, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I disagree wholeheartedly. This contention seems entirely misconceived to me, and also somewhat oppressive. Giving full reasons can't be mandatory. If I'm at AfD, I shouldn't have to type out, "I concur with the nominator. I too have carried out an exhausive search for sources and I too have not been able to locate an acceptable one. Like the nominator, I don't agree that this person's blog is a useful source for their biography." I should be allowed to type "Delete per nom" in the happy expectation that my contribution will get full weight. People must not be made to feel they have to type out arguments that have already been well made, in full, before their view is counted.—S Marshall T/C 22:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- That’s absolutely absurd. Someone who is expressing their opinion with reasoning/rationale will always be weighted higher than someone who drives by and “throws a !vote at the house”. You claim it’s weak, then care to explain why a majority of “non drive by” editors after the refutation agreed with it? And of those who didn’t, very few bothered to actually explain what they found wrong with it? Those two things are, in fact, the sign of a strong refutation. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- And what I'm saying here is that a weak refutation should not be more heavily weighted than no refutation. If anything it should be weighted less, because it reveals a fundamentally weak argument. Loki (talk) 20:20, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- ...which is what many option 3 !voters did. The difference between these sides which both didn't mention refutations is that more option 3 !voters often did not provide refutations. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- You say "everyone with eyes" agrees with you, ignoring the many people with eyes who disagree with you. Loki (talk) 20:15, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Considering that in this hypothetical you're "Bob" (
- I think it's more controversial than you think it is. Imagine the following two !votes:
- I don't think it is especially controversial to say that a !vote that considers the counter arguments and rejects them is stronger than one that simply repeats the claims with nothing showing they've done any actual analysis of it. I didn't say those should be totally ignored, just weighted accordingly. The WordsmithTalk to me 19:11, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- In which case we must also regard every comment that does not explicitly mention every piece of evidence or (claimed) refutations of that evidence as ignoring that evidence and/or refutation. i.e. the same standards must be applied to everyone. Thryduulf (talk) 19:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- It was not convincing or not - many editors chose to ignore it completely, rather than explain why they were not convinced. As I stated elsewhere, if an editor wishes to express their view that a refutation is not convincing, that is fine and could be given weight as appropriate, as the person you replied to did. But if all they do is ignore it, their vote must be seen in light of the fact they are ignoring the discussion on it, and only commenting with their opinion. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 19:02, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- But that clearly would have been a WP:SUPERVOTE, since there obviously wasn't a consensus in the discussion. The idea that a "refutation" must be accepted by everyone else who !votes subsequent to it is obviously silly. The "refutation" just wasn't convincing to many editors. Loki (talk) 18:38, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- This is just not a reasonable, policy-informed reading of the RfC. The question at issue was not
Where does bias become unreliability
. Bias does not become unreliability. One can be biased without being unreliable and vice versa. The question was "What is the reliability of the Telegraph on trans issues?". Being inflammatory is not evidence of unreliability. Failing to publish a correction is not evidence of unreliability if it can't be demonstrated that the paper published a falsehood. - The nomination statement
enjoyed significant support and received significant opposition, and overall there was no consensus about its accuracy.
Is this more vote counting? Where have you weighed arguments? Samuelshraga (talk) 07:41, 11 July 2024 (UTC)- ...and now we're getting somewhere. You don't have to be caught in a lie to be deceptive. Those appalling fundraising banners that the Wikimedia Foundation displays on our site are a really good example of this: being deceptive without actually lying. This practice of misleading people by telling the absolute truth, in an incredibly selective way, is called paltering and it's widely used by marketers, politicians, lawyers, pressure groups, and at least here in the UK, in newspapers. And if you could read what the "unreliable" camp said without understanding this, then I would gently suggest that you have an opportunity to re-read the debate more carefully.
- The "unreliable" camp did not have to catch the Daily Telegraph in a falsehood. They just had to catch them telling the truth so selectively that bias becomes actual deception.
- They didn't have to prove the Daily Telegraph intends to deceive. Deception can be inadvertent, particularly when it's by editors who're checking facts rather than checking for balance. We know all about this from Wikipedian content disputes: it's possible to deceive in good faith.
- All the "unreliable" camp had to do was convince Wikipedians (1) that it's possible to be mislead by the Telegraph's coverage and (2) this happens often enough to affect the Daily Telegraph's reliability about trans people.
- In my judgment, they failed. They did not achieve a consensus that the Daily Telegraph is unreliable.
- I then had to decide what to do in the absence of a consensus.—S Marshall T/C 08:57, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's fascinating if this was the basis for your ruling, given that you don't seem to have mentioned this in either your original or expanded close.
- Had you mentioned it, doubtless you would have given an excellent explanation of how when editors rebutted charges of "misleading" with a defence of factual accuracy (e.g. here), they were missing the point. And pointed to discussants who actually said that being accurate but misleading was the basis of their case for GUNREL.
- And when it was argued that the bar for reliability should be rooted in what false/misleading claims could be cited in articles rather than uncitable misleading implications (first sentence here and last 2 paragraphs here), you would have explained which counter-arguments you found to this point and how you weighted them, to reach a No Consensus finding.
- I also note that this is the 3rd separate explanation I've seen you give for your close. It still doesn't contain a weighing of arguments, but I'll grant you that it's less egregious than the previous two. I look forward to the next one. Samuelshraga (talk) 10:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm clearly never going to convince you, but I have a chance at convincing your audience, so I'll deal with that too.
- I'm allowed to explain my close in different ways, because you're allowed to spend thousands of words attacking it in different ways.
- It's not for me to decide which counterarguments are persuasive. That's not the closer's role.
- The RFC isn't a closer's suggestion box. It's an exhaustive dive into what the community thinks.
- I don't decide who was right. I decide what the community as a whole thinks about the subject.
- I believe that the community as a whole is at "no consensus" on the Daily Telegraph's reliability on trans issues.
- And I believe that RSP should say so.
- And if I'd weighted the arguments the way you want, I really would have been supervoting.—S Marshall T/C 11:42, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- If I thought you'd weighed arguments in a way that I don't like - if I thought you'd weighed arguments at all - then I would have just grumbled about Wikipedia in my head, and not come to a big central forum like this.
- People on this noticeboard seem to have plenty of respect for your track record as a closer, even if they think you missed the mark here. As someone who is new to these discussions, I don't see much to respect about this close. In fact I don't see much evidence that you even gave the RfC more than a cursory skim. I wasn't one of the people who invested a lot of time in the arguments at the RfC, but if I were I would be pretty livid that someone would come on and clearly count votes without reference to arguments or policy. If I encounter your future closes I will endeavour to keep an open mind, in deference to the people who seem to value your contributions in general, though not in this case. Samuelshraga (talk) 13:06, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
The idea that a "refutation" must be accepted by everyone else who !votes subsequent to it
is not what's being proposed here. I also don't expect S Marshall to take every unrefuted point as fact,- The ask is that a closing statement explain why an evaluation of consensus was made.
- S Marshall accepted your view that The Telegraph promoted the litter boxes in schools hoax, but did not provide an explanation for why your claim was the consensus and why refutations of it were not. Because your claim was accepted at face value, the consensus was for Option 2.
- I expect closes to explain why opposing views were rejected in addition to summarizing consensus. Otherwise, there is no indication that a closer considered viewpoints other than the one they ultimately endorsed. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 21:02, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Very, very well put. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 21:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note that this was originally a reply to Loki's comment above, starting with
But that clearly would have been a WP:SUPERVOTE
. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:14, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. As Novem Linguae notes in their comment above, no consensus on source reliability is not the same thing as no change or keeping the status quo. We have here a source which where reliability is a matter of contention among editors, with dozens of well explained and policy-grounded arguments for both declaring the source as unreliable and reliable. Even discounting arguments focused on bias instead of reliability, I can see no weighing of the arguments that comes to any conclusion besides that editors do not agree on the reliability of The Telegraph on transgender topics. WP:MREL exists for a reason. RSP provides guidance on whether there is broad consensus on the reliability of common sources. Source evaluation within articles is always a matter of judging the specific claims and context. Dylnuge (Talk • Edits) 02:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn and reclose to same result. People have already pointed out the problems with the close statement itself, but I think "no consensus" is the correct conclusion to be drawn from that discussion. WP:MREL says
Editors may not have been able to agree on whether the source is appropriate
which I think is certainly the case here. It would be very hard to close the discussion for one side or the other without that close being a supervote itself. Pinguinn 🐧 11:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC) - Endorse outside of paragraph 3 The INVOLVED concerns do not move me per CNC, and I think S Marshall's interpretation of RSP (that a lack of consensus for reliability should be explicitly noted, not keep the status quo) is correct. With that being said, no consensus was found that the Telegraph articles about the Rye College debacle constituted promotion of a "hoax"; the closer writes about it as if the proposition there was hoax-promotion was agreed upon, and editors disagreed whether that alone was enough to make the Telegraph unreliable. Still, there was definitely not consensus the Telegraph is reliable for these issues; Aquillion's presentation of academic sources that criticize the Telegraph's reporting on this subject was never adequately rebutted, for one.
- Even if S Marshall's close was flawed, I really do not want to go through the whole song and dance of reclosing with what will almost certainly be the same result, stated more verbosely. Sometimes I feel as if the consensus model tends toward rule by CAVE people. Mach61 13:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn Agree with the those who have argued that this should be reclosed properly. Even some of the editors who endorse the close recognize there's problems with wording of the close. The best way forward is to overturn the close and close it correctly. I realize this might seem like a waste of time, but when editors invest this much time into a review we might as well get it right. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 14:39, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse Its pretty clear from above that many agree with the close substance, like I do as well. It seems that the closer made a comment in the close that led to this discussion, but that doesnt lead me to question the substance of the close. I do not find the supervote nor involved arguments to be convincing either. If the source isnt generally reliable, which clearly it isnt from this and other discussions, then it starts to look more like a drop the stick or SOAP issue to me. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Jtbobwaysf: - regardless of the substance of the close, the controversial comment I suppose you are referring to was explictly referred to in the added RSN entry: ("
In the 2024 RfC, The Telegraph's "unashamed embrace of the widely-debunked litter boxes in schools hoax" was discussed, and it was noted that the misrepresentations about this remain unretracted.
) How do we solve this issue if the close is endorsed? starship.paint (RUN) 00:05, 12 July 2024 (UTC)- The obvious place would be discussing it at RSP, to discuss how a summary should read. I don't think you'll find any support for including that quote in future, based on this discussion alone. Common sense can simply prevail here. CNC (talk) 01:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't question the substance either, but it is extremely bad for what's supposed to be a neutral summary that saves peoples' time to mislead its readers on such an important point. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with CNC that this additional and unnecessary summary of the close should be trimmed over at RSP. The fact that we are discussing such far off theories (even if untrue) associated with this source should point to the validity of the close. Again I endorse, I am confident the additional comment can be struck without needing to re-run the discussion. Just do what is simple rather than making it complicated. I believe whoever closes this discussion can just find that the close comment as a matter of fact is incorrect (while the overall close is non-controversial), strike it, and thus subsequently remove the summary over at at RSP. Seems simple enough to me Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:57, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- So now we've got the nominator at this close review who wants to overturn, and an uninvolved contributor who endorses, both giving exactly the same reasoning for their position.—S Marshall T/C 10:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Important to note that I dont agree that the closer was involved, so we disagree on a key policy issue. We can be clear from this review discussion as well as the original discussion that there is clearly no-consensus that the source is reliable, or anywhere close to reliable for that matter. This isnt a matter where this discussion is going to be overturned and then spontaneously the source will be viewed in the next discussion as reliable. So common sense means we would not need to overturn this to put it back to another discussion, as if the matter was undecided. We are only dealing with a close summary that was a bit off, but the close itself is correct. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 11:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think that overturning that paragraph counts as overturning the close. It seems Jtbob feels like the biggest damages can be resolved without amending the close statement and that the summary isn't damaging enough to amend, the latter of which I definitely disagree with. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:33, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- You're right that directly amending the close would be overturning. Hence for example I endorse the close as the correct outcome, but can understand overturning based on the summary. The reality is this RfC could be closed specifying that parts of the closing summary X, Y and Z, were inappropriate and/or inaccurate, while not directly overturning that RfC, only adding an additional summary to it, based on the discussion that has occurred here. Ie as a note to the top of that RfC, but not within it, thus not actually overturning the close itself. Sometimes it'd be nice to simply think outside the box to avoid a lot of legwork of re-closing such a long RfC. CNC (talk) 16:17, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see how the additional summary would work. If it doesn't mention that the close's language on Rye College is inaccurate, then it won't really be effective. If it does, I feel like we'd need consensus that it's inaccurate. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Consensus based on the close of this RfC, attached above the previous. It would be the same concept as re-closing with the same result, without the extra hassle. A new concept you might say. CNC (talk) 19:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I feel like that would require the same level of consensus as a closure review. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- It wouldn't no. It would be another RfC closure, as this is an RfC. CNC (talk) 22:22, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I feel like that would require the same level of consensus as a closure review. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Consensus based on the close of this RfC, attached above the previous. It would be the same concept as re-closing with the same result, without the extra hassle. A new concept you might say. CNC (talk) 19:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see how the additional summary would work. If it doesn't mention that the close's language on Rye College is inaccurate, then it won't really be effective. If it does, I feel like we'd need consensus that it's inaccurate. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- You're right that directly amending the close would be overturning. Hence for example I endorse the close as the correct outcome, but can understand overturning based on the summary. The reality is this RfC could be closed specifying that parts of the closing summary X, Y and Z, were inappropriate and/or inaccurate, while not directly overturning that RfC, only adding an additional summary to it, based on the discussion that has occurred here. Ie as a note to the top of that RfC, but not within it, thus not actually overturning the close itself. Sometimes it'd be nice to simply think outside the box to avoid a lot of legwork of re-closing such a long RfC. CNC (talk) 16:17, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- So now we've got the nominator at this close review who wants to overturn, and an uninvolved contributor who endorses, both giving exactly the same reasoning for their position.—S Marshall T/C 10:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- The obvious place would be discussing it at RSP, to discuss how a summary should read. I don't think you'll find any support for including that quote in future, based on this discussion alone. Common sense can simply prevail here. CNC (talk) 01:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't an RfC, and if it requires consensus here anyway I'd rather we just amend the original language than invent something untested and potentially confusing. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Jtbobwaysf: - regardless of the substance of the close, the controversial comment I suppose you are referring to was explictly referred to in the added RSN entry: ("
- Endorse except paragraph 3. S Marshall's interpretation of RSP is right. However, 'unashamed embrace' of the litter boxes hoax is an inaccurate summary of consensus. That incorrect phrasing was immediately being used in RSP for anyone looking-up the source. Rewriting that part might be the simplest way of resolving this, some editors have helpfully suggested alternative wording. I can believe the closer is usually good, I agree with much of what they say and know closing detail is tricky, but the summary currently doesn't do justice to the editors who spent time analysing the sources. It makes sense to bring up the further explanation added by the closer afterward, up into the main summary, so it's all easily accessible without further clicks, Tom B (talk) 22:42, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn The close was no doubt in good faith, however it is not well argued, and indeed it should not really be argued at all. It also isn't really a close.
- It gives platform to the most flagrantly gender-critical tracts by anti-woke activists. This is irrelevant. Tracts by activists are opinion pieces, and whether they are the "most flagrant" or the "most Satanic" or the "most wonderful" they should not be cited for anything other than the opinion of their authors.
- widely-debunked Litter boxes in schools hoax - as remarked elsewhere the Telegraph pointed out that it was a hoax. The only factual error seems to have revolved around whether there was a cat identifying pupil, which to me seems irrelevant. The crux of the story is the, undisputed, unkind criticism of the child who thought such a thing would be silly.
- We label a source as "generally reliable" when there's widespread consensus that the source can be trusted to publish fact and retract error. I think this is overegging the pudding. In general there is consensus among relatively few editors, which we believe would be widely shared.
- We must say […] that the Daily Telegraph is generally reliable, except as regards trans issues and gender-critical views, where the Daily Telegraph's reliability is disputed. This is really not a close. It's a continuation of the RfC by other means.
- All the best: Rich Farmbrough 00:43, 13 July 2024 (UTC).
- Overturn - too much of the closer's own opinion on the issue in dispute was in the closing statement; not enough of the statement was spent summarizing the discussion and explaining how votes were weighed. Let someone else close it; no comment on how it should be closed. But a "no consensus" result at RSN (for a perennial source) should mean a 2 (yellow) listing at RSP. That's what "2" means: no consensus on reliability. "1" if there is consensus it's reliabile, "3" if there is consensus it's not, and otherwise, 2. Levivich (talk) 18:13, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
Overturn. I did not participate in the discussion and have no interest in this dispute other than an interest in broadsheet newspapers generally. The close misrepresents consensus. For example, the close says that the Telegraph embraced the hoax. In reality, there is at least no consensus that the Telegraph embraced the hoax, and a lengthy argument about whether it did. Similarly, the close misrepresents and displays a failure to understand policy. For example, the close claims that a source is not "generally reliable" unless there is widespread consensus that it is. In reality, the policy WP:NEWSORG says that news reporting from well-established news outlets is "generally" reliable for statements of fact. If it is possible under that policy to dispute the "general" reliabilty of the Telegraph at all (and it is not obvious that it is possible to dispute it under the policy, if you accept that the Telegraph is "well-established" as a national daily quality broadsheet newspaper of record established in 1855, and one of at most five such newspapers still published in England), the policy must create a presumption that it is generally reliable and place the burden of proof on those who seek to rebut that presumption. Likewise the closer claims that WP:ONUS applies to disputes over the reliability of sources. In fact, WP:ONUS applies to the disputes about the inclusion of content in articles, which is a completely different matter concerned with the exclusion of verifiable content on grounds of "due weight" and similar issues. Likewise the closer claims that the question in the RfC was where does bias become unreliability? In reality, policy WP:BIASED says that reliable sources are not required to be unbiased. Finally, the closer misrepresents the effect of no consensus in a discussion where there are already policies, namely WP:NEWSORG and WP:BIASED. If there are policies, there is an existing site consensus. WP:DETCON says "consensus is ascertained by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy" (my emphasis). That appears to mean viewed through the lens of the policy WP:NEWSORG. I think I should also point out that WP:RSP is not a policy or guideline, does not override the policy WP:NEWSORG, and should have been weighted accordingly. I think it could also be reasonably argued that no consensus is capable of meaning "no consensus to change the text of RSP", but I express no opinion about whether it does mean that. James500 (talk) 07:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)- WP:NEWSORG isn't policy, and it doesn't say all newspapers are reliable unless there's consensus otherwise. We've rightly found parts of the British mainstream press, notably but not only the Daily Mail, properly unreliable in the past. The burden of proof doesn't lie where you say it does.—S Marshall T/C 09:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, upon closer inspection, I find that WP:NEWSORG is in fact a guideline, and not a policy. However, if WP:DETCON does not apply to guidelines, the effect would be to throw all guidelines out of the window. I am not aware that we have ever found a quality broadsheet print newspaper to be unreliable. The Daily Mail is a tabloid, and it is not, and as far as I am aware, never has been, quality press. It is not apparent that the Daily Mail is "well established" within the meaning of WP:NEWSORG. I think I should point out that NEWSORG makes a distiction between news sources being reliable and their being generally reliable. I am not saying that the Telegraph cannot be unreliable for a particular fact or statement, or even for a particular topic. I am saying that "generally reliable" means something different to that in NEWSORG. James500 (talk) 09:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, exactly so. The discussion we're analysing is about whether the Telegraph is unreliable for a particular topic, to whit, trans people. My position is that there's no consensus about whether it's reliable for that topic, and that WP:RSP should say so. Do you think there's a consensus it's reliable?—S Marshall T/C 11:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Even if all well-established broadsheet newspapers are presumed to be generally reliable until found otherwise, this requires that there be some mechanism by which such newspapers can be found otherwise (otherwise we would be saying they are always generally reliable regardless of any evidence to the contrary). That mechanism is a discussion at RSN, and this RFC was an example of such a discussion. It follows that it must be possible for that discussion to find that a well-established broadsheet newspaper is something other than generally reliable, either for all topics or for some subset of topics. Whether this discussion did establish that is the point of this discussion. Additionally, the reliability of a source can change over time - just because the Telegraph has a long history of being regarded as reliable does not imply anything about whether it is or is not reliable today. Thryduulf (talk) 11:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- I am going to strike my !vote, since it appears that it might actually be unitelligible. I was not asserting that the newspaper was reliable on this topic, a matter on which I have no personal opinion. All that I objected to was to was certain reasoning and wording used in the closing statement and by the closer to produce a particular outcome. I did not mean to express any opinion on the outcome itself. James500 (talk) 11:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think it was unintelligible.
The close mispresents consensus. For example, the close says that the Telegraph embraced the hoax. In reality, there is at least no consensus that the Telegraph embraced the hoax, and a lengthy argument about whether it did
. This on its own is a perfectly reasonable and widely shared opinion that argues for overturn, before any weighing of the second part of your comment. - Your opinion about the relative weight of the status quo in the presumption of reliability in established news organisations should not have been read by anyone as an argument that the Telegraph was reliable. I think it was an important response, especially that you pointed out that
no consensus is capable of meaning "no consensus to change the text of the RSP"
. It was certainly my understanding of the RfC, and the way that I framed my contribution to it, that the question was whether the evidence presented merited downgrading the Telegraph, and that positive arguments for its reliability were assumed. I'm sure some editors would have put those arguments had the discussion been framed in the way that some people in this review now interpret it. Samuelshraga (talk) 14:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)- The question was "What is the reliability of the Telegraph on trans issues?". If the outcome of that discussion is "no consensus", how can an RSP entry saying "Editors show consensus that the source is reliable in most cases" on trans issues be accurate or appropriate? This is a genuine question - I am trying to understand the arguments for that position because I currently do not. Thryduulf (talk) 16:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- The RSN RFC question was exceedingly clear, and is the standard question for RSN RFCs:
What is the reliability of the Telegraph on trans issues?
The questions was not "should it be downgraded," or "should the RSP entry be changed", in which case, one could argue that no-consensus means no change. But since the question was "What is the reliability?" with the standard 4 options, no consensus on the reliability means Option 2, at least in my view. And that's true for all RSN "What is the reliability?" 4-question RFCs. Levivich (talk) 19:16, 14 July 2024 (UTC)- This is absolutely fair, but a reading of the discussion shows that the approach that was taken was "should it be downgraded", although I take your point that these were not the terms of the question at the RfC. I think a fair summation of the discussion would recognise this. Personally my involvement on the RfC was just to say that after the refutations of the RfC nomination, I didn't see that there was any case to answer for unreliability. I think if contributors had thought there were any need to make a positive case for reliability, rather than just refute the case for unreliability, they would have done so. If the RfC is re-opened with this point clarified, I'm sure they will. Samuelshraga (talk) 05:10, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- I disagree that is a fair summation of the RFC - from what I can tell the majority of people were answering the question that was asked. Thryduulf (talk) 08:16, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you read Closer's statement at this review, you will find in his explanation:
In other words, I decided to treat this as more like a content decision governed by WP:ONUS than a procedural one governed by AFD consensus. In doing this, I removed the first mover advantage that the "generally reliable" side expected and I think relied on.
- Closer saw that GREL side expected that the status quo had weight, and didn't feel that they had to make a positive case for general reliability. Meaning if this RfC is closed no consensus, why wouldn't we have another RfC straight away containing the positive case for Telegraph's reliability as part of the Option 1 case? As closer says, GREL-supporters relied on this argument being assumed last time, so this would be new evidence in the discussion.
- The remedy here seems to me to re-open the RfC under discussion to allow that case to be made (and rebutted) now, and then close with those arguments explicitly considered. Samuelshraga (talk) 09:18, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you read Closer's statement at this review, you will find in his explanation:
- I would concur with this perception. In the absence of a legitimate case for unreliability (ie, the presented evidence was roundly and comprehensively debunked) there was no positive case to make.
- This RFC discussion in practice proceeded very much like "is there a consensus that the catgirl story was a hoax, and thus that the Telegraph is unreliable", and the consensus was quite clearly no it was not a hoax (especially if reading only votes that went beyond WP:IDONTLIKEIT), and any fair reading of the evidence was no it was not a hoax. The case was so poorly made, what else was there to do? Yet the closer insisted on still describing it as a hoax, and proceeded to downgrade the source citing that as a basis, unilaterally widening the subject beyond that stated in the RFC in the process. Void if removed (talk) 09:27, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- I disagree that is a fair summation of the RFC - from what I can tell the majority of people were answering the question that was asked. Thryduulf (talk) 08:16, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- This is absolutely fair, but a reading of the discussion shows that the approach that was taken was "should it be downgraded", although I take your point that these were not the terms of the question at the RfC. I think a fair summation of the discussion would recognise this. Personally my involvement on the RfC was just to say that after the refutations of the RfC nomination, I didn't see that there was any case to answer for unreliability. I think if contributors had thought there were any need to make a positive case for reliability, rather than just refute the case for unreliability, they would have done so. If the RfC is re-opened with this point clarified, I'm sure they will. Samuelshraga (talk) 05:10, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't think it was unintelligible either; seemed well-reasoned to me. Levivich (talk) 19:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think it was unintelligible.
- I am going to strike my !vote, since it appears that it might actually be unitelligible. I was not asserting that the newspaper was reliable on this topic, a matter on which I have no personal opinion. All that I objected to was to was certain reasoning and wording used in the closing statement and by the closer to produce a particular outcome. I did not mean to express any opinion on the outcome itself. James500 (talk) 11:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, upon closer inspection, I find that WP:NEWSORG is in fact a guideline, and not a policy. However, if WP:DETCON does not apply to guidelines, the effect would be to throw all guidelines out of the window. I am not aware that we have ever found a quality broadsheet print newspaper to be unreliable. The Daily Mail is a tabloid, and it is not, and as far as I am aware, never has been, quality press. It is not apparent that the Daily Mail is "well established" within the meaning of WP:NEWSORG. I think I should point out that NEWSORG makes a distiction between news sources being reliable and their being generally reliable. I am not saying that the Telegraph cannot be unreliable for a particular fact or statement, or even for a particular topic. I am saying that "generally reliable" means something different to that in NEWSORG. James500 (talk) 09:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- WP:NEWSORG isn't policy, and it doesn't say all newspapers are reliable unless there's consensus otherwise. We've rightly found parts of the British mainstream press, notably but not only the Daily Mail, properly unreliable in the past. The burden of proof doesn't lie where you say it does.—S Marshall T/C 09:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse except paragraph 3. A no consensus close is well within closer's discretion, and it would be hard to envision this being closed any other way. S Marshall is one of our most experienced and competent closers. His summaries tend to be more colorful than others ("willing warrior in the war on wokery"), but we can accommodate a variety of closing styles. I think the "unashamed embrace" part is more than just color, and since so much of the discussion was spent supporting or debunking that assertion, I don't think SM got it right that there's consensus on that point. I would be fine with reclose with the same overall result as a second choice, and I think most of our experienced closers (including SM, if so directed) could manage a close that's more dispassionate. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think it would be surprising if whoever closes this directed me to reword the close giving the same result. I think that would be a distinctly unconventional outcome for an RfC close review, but I suppose I'd comply if so asked.—S Marshall T/C 13:40, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- It won't happen. Just a vote of confidence in your skills and nature. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:51, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, thank you. Thanks to the kind words of quite a few people including yourself, I'm reassured that in general and despite a few exceptions, I do seem to enjoy the community's confidence as a closer (whether or not there's consensus to overturn this particular close, which isn't for me to judge).—S Marshall T/C 14:57, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- As someone who thinks you got this one wrong, I also respect your overall closing ability and experience. The ones I've seen are overall very good. Accurately determining consensus is really hard, even for the most experienced editors. Anyone who closes enough contentious discussions is bound to make a mistake once in a while, and I don't think it has any impact on the community's overall trust in your judgement. The WordsmithTalk to me 19:49, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, thank you. Thanks to the kind words of quite a few people including yourself, I'm reassured that in general and despite a few exceptions, I do seem to enjoy the community's confidence as a closer (whether or not there's consensus to overturn this particular close, which isn't for me to judge).—S Marshall T/C 14:57, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- It won't happen. Just a vote of confidence in your skills and nature. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:51, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think it would be surprising if whoever closes this directed me to reword the close giving the same result. I think that would be a distinctly unconventional outcome for an RfC close review, but I suppose I'd comply if so asked.—S Marshall T/C 13:40, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. As you might see, I'm very confused by the structure of this survey and discussion, and would not be surprised if this endorsement gets relocated to a more appropriate location within it. This closure was more than reasonable and well thought out. Frankly, I would endorse S Marshall's closures all the way out to the edges of the Universes and back, but that's just me. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 19:30, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: Moved from the "Subpage" section. How do you think the format can be improved? This kind of sectioning has been the default recommended by the closure review template for a little more than 8 months now.
Are there any comments you'd like to make on the reasonings of the editors who opened this discussion? Aaron Liu (talk) 19:54, 19 July 2024 (UTC)- I don't know about this format – it seems the more subsections there are, the more confusing it gets. My endorsement comment is complete, thank you. Perhaps my confusion should be taken cum grano salis since I have spent no time at all on this page. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 20:32, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, the same arguably applies to your entire comment then. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:02, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps. If I had to defend the rest of my words, I would begin by using "irrefutable". I've seen far too many great closures by Marshall, and much of what I've learned about closing I've learned from him. I don't think you'll be able to make me understand what motivates such a statement... arguably :>) P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 15:43, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- So his closes are so great in general that no matter the arguments made about this specific one, it should be maintained? Not sure Wikipedia should work that way, and very much hope whoever closes this review gives no weight to this !vote whatsoever. Samuelshraga (talk) 07:11, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not at all. I just disagree with non-endorsements herein. This closure should be endorsed not because the closer is correct, but because the close is correct. I could be wrong. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 15:30, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think you can disagree with an argument if you haven't even spent enough time to read the subheadings. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:00, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not at all. I just disagree with non-endorsements herein. This closure should be endorsed not because the closer is correct, but because the close is correct. I could be wrong. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 15:30, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- So his closes are so great in general that no matter the arguments made about this specific one, it should be maintained? Not sure Wikipedia should work that way, and very much hope whoever closes this review gives no weight to this !vote whatsoever. Samuelshraga (talk) 07:11, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps. If I had to defend the rest of my words, I would begin by using "irrefutable". I've seen far too many great closures by Marshall, and much of what I've learned about closing I've learned from him. I don't think you'll be able to make me understand what motivates such a statement... arguably :>) P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 15:43, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, the same arguably applies to your entire comment then. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:02, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know about this format – it seems the more subsections there are, the more confusing it gets. My endorsement comment is complete, thank you. Perhaps my confusion should be taken cum grano salis since I have spent no time at all on this page. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 20:32, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: Moved from the "Subpage" section. How do you think the format can be improved? This kind of sectioning has been the default recommended by the closure review template for a little more than 8 months now.
Participants (Telegraph)
- Support close. So, technically speaking, the Telegraph may have "only" supported a clearly false assertion that is very similar to the litter boxes in schools hoax, depending on how narrowly you read that page. However, IMO this is a nitpick. In practice what they said has all the important elements of the litter boxes in schools hoax: the important bit is that they claim a school officially supported students identifying as animals, and not the literal litter box part. If you object to the wording at WP:RSP, then edit that. Loki (talk) 05:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I object to the wording of the part of the close quoted at RSP. As long as the quoted content remains part of the close, I'm pretty sure arguments for removing it are unlikely the gain ground.Regardless of whether the hoax includes the situation in the articles mentioned, casual readers are likely to misinterpret what the misrepresentation is at first glance, which is something a summary should avoid. This "nitpick" has been raised at the closer's talk page and he has refused to change this wording. Aaron Liu (talk) 05:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- As was clearly and prominently refuted during the discussion, the Telegraph did not
claim a school officially supported students identifying as animals
. They reported, as a reliable source is allowed to, that the parents of a suspended student claimed that the school was doing that, and citing that belief to the parents themselves. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 05:30, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- If you think that was refuted at all, much less clearly, you're wrong. In fact I personally think you're lying, since it very clearly wasn't. Loki (talk) 14:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- It very clearly was, based on the relative amount of “legitimate” !votes for 1/3/4 after it was (legitimate meaning not based on “it’s biased” or “I don’t like it”), and for you to accuse me of lying shows a massive lack of AGF. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 14:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- It should be pretty clear that you can't just count votes to decide on a factual claim. Many people weren't convinced by my argument as a whole, but also many were, including several who were specifically convinced by the Rye College thing. Conversely many Option 1 voters, like the closer noted, waved off the Rye College articles as a single mistake without denying they were false. Loki (talk) 14:23, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yet significantly more people were either not convinced by your claims in the first place, or - and this is the important part - were convinced by the refutations. The mere fact that a relatively small proportion of editors claimed to still be convinced by your evidence does not change the fact that there can be consensus on reliability. If 10% of editors think it’s unreliable, but 90% were happy with the refutation, then it’s laughable to suggest it should be listed as “unclear” - that would be one of the clearest consensuses possible. Yet the closer didn’t even attempt to evaluate how the discussion evolved or the relative strength of the arguments. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 14:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've just re-read every bolded "Option 1" !vote, and and while I may have missed something I can't see any who
waved off the Rye College articles as a single mistake without denying they were false
. If I did miss something, can you link the !votes? BilledMammal (talk) 14:35, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- It should be pretty clear that you can't just count votes to decide on a factual claim. Many people weren't convinced by my argument as a whole, but also many were, including several who were specifically convinced by the Rye College thing. Conversely many Option 1 voters, like the closer noted, waved off the Rye College articles as a single mistake without denying they were false. Loki (talk) 14:23, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- It very clearly was, based on the relative amount of “legitimate” !votes for 1/3/4 after it was (legitimate meaning not based on “it’s biased” or “I don’t like it”), and for you to accuse me of lying shows a massive lack of AGF. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 14:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you think that was refuted at all, much less clearly, you're wrong. In fact I personally think you're lying, since it very clearly wasn't. Loki (talk) 14:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- For the record, I also do not think that S Marshall is INVOLVED based off personal experience closing an RFC while having previously participated in an RFC in the topic area, and having that firmly upheld on close review. Loki (talk) 14:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn, and reclose. The closer did not take into account, or at a minimum failed to explain how they took into account, the number of !votes (primarily on the "unreliable/deprecate" side, but also a few on the reliable side) that were based solely on "I don't like it" or "it's biased thus by default unreliable" standpoints. That fact alone should merit overturning the close, since the closer did not take the strength of those arguments into account and down-weight them accordingly. However, the closer also admits on their talk page that they basically supervoted. They didn't assess the community's belief, and especially Chess's refutation, of the claims regarding the "cat" hoax/"litterbox" hoax. They assessed, without explaining how they felt the community came to that consensus, that it was blatant misinformation, and they based their close in large part on the fact that, since the source published information about that, all arguments for unreliability must be accurate. In fact, Chess and other users (including myself), refuted the fact that it was a "hoax" published by the Telegraph - the Telegraph published what others were saying about it, and cited their sources accordingly when they did report the views/opinions of others. However, the closer did not take into account any of these arguments made. Lastly, there was a clear turn of the discussion after Chess and others discussed and refuted the claims at length during the discussion. Before Chess's comments and the ensuing discussions, there were people claiming that the evidence presented at the start was grounds for unreliability on its own. Many of these people admitted that Chess's refutation was valid, and that their arguments were much less strong. But even more damning for this close, after Chess's refutations and the ensuing discussions had been discussed, there were virtually no !votes for unreliable/deprecate that were actually based on the evidence presented at the beginning. The vast majority, if not all, of the !votes after the discussions were based on the improper arguments such as "I don't like it" or "It's biased thus unreliable", which were not properly weighted by the closer. Ultimately, I thank the closer for making an attempt, but it is clear that the close failed in three primary ways: It did not evaluate the strength of the arguments, it did not evaluate the "turn of the tide" after the opening arguments were largely refuted, and the closer injected their personal opinion as to the "cat/litterbox" hoax into their evaluation. For these reasons, the close should be overturned. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 05:27, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn. The close is not close to a faithful conclusion of the discussion. The issues with this close are in the third and fourth paragraphs. In the third, the close takes as a fact
The Telegraph's unashamed embrace of the widely-debunked Litter boxes in schools hoax
. Any reading whatsoever of the discussion will show that the idea that the Telegraph promoted some version of the litterbox hoax is contested, with many editors subscribing to refutations of this point. The next paragraph goes on to assert thatOn trans issues, Wikipedians simply do not have this level of confidence in the Daily Telegraph.
The only argument referenced to this point has been the litterbox one. Editors who took issue with the third paragraph therefore found the fourth, which finds that reliability is disputed, to be invalid. However, the closer clarifies on talk thatFourth paragraph is independent of the third.
The assessment that reliability is disputed was therefore not given any justification in the close itself, so closer expanded the close. The expansion provides but one reason why to give weight to the argument that the Telegraph is not generally reliable on trans issues:Although some members of the community have confidence that the Daily Telegraph is reliable on trans issues, this view is strongly disputed by significant numbers.
In other words, closer is counting votes. Except closer tells me on talk thatthe point is not to count votes, and I didn't, but to weigh arguments, which I did
. Closer has shown no evidence of weighing arguments (except in the case of the litterbox hoax claim, in which closer showed no evidence of weighing arguments fairly). Closer claims both not to have counted votes, but also bases their close of "Reliability disputed" on the claim that the view that the Telegraph is reliable "is strongly disputed by significant numbers". If closer is not willing to revert, close should be overturned as closer won't give a consistent account of what the reason is for the close. Samuelshraga (talk) 06:51, 9 July 2024 (UTC) - Support close because I think it's a perfectly reasonable close despite me thinking very negatively of The Telegraph. My emotions want it deprecated, but I know that this is the best we can get. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 07:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Seraphimblade, you can't reopen the discussion when it's still at AN... I would say the same if I wanted it overturned. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 11:48, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, and that's misuse of rollback. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 12:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Seraphimblade, you can't reopen the discussion when it's still at AN... I would say the same if I wanted it overturned. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 11:48, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support close, but what the hell is
(The Telegraph) is a willing warrior in the war on wokery. It gives platform to the most flagrantly gender-critical tracts by anti-woke activists
. I'm not sure what "woke" is being used as a synonym for here, but there are better words for the Telegraphs "anti-woke activists". They are called transphobes. Most of them even call themselves "gender-critical", which is the same thing. Also, radical feminists like Julie Bindel are not "anti-woke". Black Kite (talk) 10:18, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- I don't see gender-critical and transphobic as 100% synonymous although Julie Bindel certainly qualifies as both. I specifically wanted to say that the Telegraph is activist on this issue.—S Marshall T/C 10:23, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn - first I would like to thank S Marshall for their effort in closing such a large RfC, as they have done so many times before. Unfortunately despite that, I share the concerns of Berchanhimez and Samuelshraga particularly regarding the litterbox issue, it was far more disputed by editors than what the original and extended closures portrayed. Since this was a significant and prominent part of the close, that causes the entire closure to fall into doubt. starship.paint (RUN) 12:12, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Kind of overturn I agree with the closing in that when we have such a clear 1 or 3 split we can't just say no consensus so no change. Certainly such a gap means on this topic we need to use caution. I also agree that the closing was not a summary of the arguments and for that reason the closing statement either needs to be changed to align with a true summary of the discussion or another editor should close the discussion. That the source was biased seemed to have consensus but how much did not have a consensus. The closing suggests there was agreement on how biased the source was. I also agree that some of the language used in that part of the closing appeared to be expressing an opinion rather than summarizing the discussion. Since much of the discussion centered on the litter box hoax it is important to get that part of the close correct. I think all would agree that there was a clear dispute regarding if the source was just reporting or if they were embracing. As such the claim that the statement, "
The Telegraph's unashamed embrace of the widely-debunked Litter boxes in schools hoax
" is clearly inaccurate. I don't have a strong view on the involved claim but I'm not sure I view that as disqualifying in this case. Springee (talk) 12:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC) - Overturn The close expansion includes:
Towards the end of this, the "generally reliable" camp is reduced to a bold-face statement that reliable sources are allowed to make mistakes, which I receive as a concession that the article is misleading.
I don’t see this in the discussion. Also, there is no mention of the general disparity between those who supported Option 1, who generally discussed the question of whether the Telegraph is reliable on transgender matters - which is what the RfC was supposed to be about - and those who supported Option 3, who mostly said we should not use the Telegraph on transgender matters because it is biased – which is not what the RfC was supposed to be about.On the contrary, the closing comment summarises the attitude of those who preferred Option 3,It is a willing warrior in the war on wokery. It gives platform to the most flagrantly gender-critical tracts by anti-woke activists.
without making the obvious conclusion that such views are irrelevant to an RfC on reliability. Sweet6970 (talk) 12:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC) - Overturn, the weighting and evaluation of the arguments was done poorly, and the tone of the original close leaves much to be desired. Unfortunately, some of the summaries of the arguments (like the cat story) was either done poorly, or added onto through the closers own arguments trending towards a supervote. Lastly, whether or not the closer is clearly involved, there is definitely a strong appearance of involvement, which is enough IMO. FortunateSons (talk) 12:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support closer, oppose close. It's a real stretch to accuse S Marshall of being involved for having an opinion on a related matter (or even on this matter). We're not robots nor should we pretend to be - and I have previously seen S Marshall demonstrate high competence in separating personal views from the principles at hand in a discussion. However, I do agree that the close rationale erred in endorsing a point that had been thoroughly rebutted in the discussion, and in taking a bold interpretation of WP:ONUS. It is not clear to me that the policy on onus with respect to article content should automatically apply to discussions of general reliability. This is a point that could potentially be argued in the abstract, but in this specific case, when our starting point is a previous RfC finding general reliability, then the onus should very much be on bringing new evidence, and the focus of the close should be on whether or not that evidence has been successfully rebutted - not on whether there was a dispute. If there's no consensus that the new charges are valid, then they should be considered unproven, and the status quo should remain. Proving unreliability should be hard, as a countermeasure to the chilling effect of a downgrade. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 12:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn. The closer was WP:INVOLVED with respect to The Telegraph's reliability in the context of political topics, as their comment from April 2024 shows. And the sort of involvement does somewhat show in the close; the close does not faithfully represent the consensus attained on key points, and it doesn't appear to attempt to summarize what the arguments on each side were. Instead, the close reads much more as if it were a !vote in the RfC, where the closer inserts his own analysis of the source (
It is a willing warrior in the war on wokery
) and appears to give definitive weight to one questionable interpretation of The Telegraph's reporting (unashamed embrace of the widely-debunked Litter boxes in schools hoax
) as if it were to have reflected the broad consensus of the discussion.Because the closure should represent the discussion faithfully, and this closing summary is more of an argument than an attempt to do so, it should be overturned. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 13:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC) - SMarshall was not INVOLVED. I'm not going to express an opinion about the close as a whole as I fear I would fail to avoid the relitigation that multiple editors here are doing) but I see absolutely no evidence that SMarshall was INVOLVED within the meaning of that policy and so that allegation should not be factored into the assessment of the close. Thryduulf (talk) 14:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn - the finding that there was no consensus the Telegraph is not reliable, but the source should still be considered "not generally reliable" (in some unspecified way) is unreasonable. It is probably better to vacate it entirely rather than modify it to a pure "no consensus" close. Walsh90210 (talk) 15:47, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- No consensus (MREL) also means "not generally reliable" (GREL). It does not mean "generally unreliable" (GUNREL). Everything that isn't GREL is not generally reliable to put it simply, such as a "pure no consensus close". CNC (talk) 15:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's just how WP:RSP works. The normal rule of no consensus = no change doesn't apply. Instead "no consensus" is a status, and it's WP:MREL. Loki (talk) 16:33, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- This is ridiculous. If there is "consensus for no consensus" that is one thing, but a "no consensus at all so a specific change must happen" is a supervote. Walsh90210 (talk) 18:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- You might think it's ridiculous but that's how RSP works. "Generally reliable" is defined to mean "there is a consensus that this source is generally reliable". There is a specific category for sources about which there is no consensus. Thryduulf (talk) 18:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think we're at the point of "beating a dead horse". I've asked below in the clarity section on whether this RfC should be an exception to the status quo, or whether RSP should be changed, and if so whether it should be retrospectively; but so far there are no proposals. Any closer of this discussion is surely aware of how RSP operates by now. CNC (talk) 18:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- You might think it's ridiculous but that's how RSP works. "Generally reliable" is defined to mean "there is a consensus that this source is generally reliable". There is a specific category for sources about which there is no consensus. Thryduulf (talk) 18:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- This is ridiculous. If there is "consensus for no consensus" that is one thing, but a "no consensus at all so a specific change must happen" is a supervote. Walsh90210 (talk) 18:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support close to prevent time-wasting: I supported option 3 but find the close a clear reading of the discussion. While it's not a vote count, we should be on the same page about the trend of the discussion. By a quick count: ~55 editors said option 1 (with many arguing it was biased but not enough to effect reliability), ~8 supported option 2, ~50 said option 3/4, ~8 said 1/2, and ~4 said 2/3. That leaves us with a clear majority in favor of "there are issues with calling this straight up reliable" (~
8070(fixed per starship) v ~55, with, as I noted, many in the latter camp acknowledging it does have a GC slant). Editors presented RS that supported the claims of bias as well. When such a large outpouring of editors have significant concerns regarding a source's reliability, that must be reflected in the close - there was no earthly way this could have been closed with "the community agrees this is reliable on trans topics". WRT claims that those questioning it's reliability did so on WP:IDLI grounds - editors considered platforming anti-trans activists and talking points in every article a clear sign of unreliability/bias just as if their editorial line was obviously pro-flat earth or pro-race realism (please note that regardless of your opinions on whether the GC movement is correct or not, RS do overwhelmingly say it's a hate-based movement supportive of disinformation). Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 15:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- Addition error. 70 per your numbers. Not 80. starship.paint (RUN) 16:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- P.S. Everyone should disclose how they voted Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 15:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I simply don't see how you think counting votes is an argument in support of a close, especially when the closer's only justification is that they counted votes. (Leaving aside the fact that counting 1/2 !votes as against calling it WP:GREL is a stretch. Those votes explicitly support calling it generally reliable, and are broadly saying they would accept/support adding a note in RSP, not downgrading the source. I conclude this by actually reading those comments, rather than counting them.) Samuelshraga (talk) 18:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Could you address the reasons we, or at least I, brought up the close review? Aaron Liu (talk) 18:18, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Gladly: to start, please take my comment in the context that the close review grew beyond your point.
- Regarding the "overturn whole close": I do not believe the closer was involved (which would, in my view, entail either participating in the discussion or being generally active in GENSEX). I do not believe he misread the discussion in finding MREL.
- Regarding your specific note on the litter box hoax: I actually agree with you it could have been better (though on procedural grounds I think it was fine and this 2 pronged close review is wasteful of editor labor). Being more specific:
- The litterboxes were extensively discussed and would inevitably have been mentioned in the close. An uninvolved editor weighed up the arguments on both sides, and believed that the "hoax promotion" had better ones - but it could have been the other way or more equivocal and still be a valid close imo. To be clear, I think
The Telegraph's unashamed embrace of the widely-debunked Litter boxes in schools hoax is discussed
could have been better phrased asWhether the Telegraph embraced the widely-debunked ...
- That being said, I think it should have been a more general statement on misinformation: misrepresenting the Cass Review, incorrect statements on "desistance", use of meaningless scarewords like "gender ideology" or "trans agenda" in its voice, and etc. Particularly, as many noted, platforming FRINGE groups to make false statements on issues while portraying them as experts and disregarding more mainstream ones.
- Sidenote to that, I disagreed with the extended close's statement about
its historic homophobia and advocacy for conversion therapy (neither of which is the paper's current editorial position)
. - They no longer support LGB conversion therapy, but its blatant in practically every article that they support it for trans people, and I would further argue that their repeated framing of issues as LGB v T, as if they're mutually exclusive, is homophobic in itself.
- Sidenote to that, I disagreed with the extended close's statement about
- The litterboxes were extensively discussed and would inevitably have been mentioned in the close. An uninvolved editor weighed up the arguments on both sides, and believed that the "hoax promotion" had better ones - but it could have been the other way or more equivocal and still be a valid close imo. To be clear, I think
- Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- To your point on the "litterbox hoax" and their reporting on it, your recommended alternative sentence starting with "whether" changes the meaning completely. SM's close referred explicitly to the fact that many people "believed" they "embraced" the hoax, and did not address the fact that, aside from those whose !votes were based on their opinions on the underlying subject as a whole, the majority of editors did not see it as being reported as truthful in the reporting - and in fact a reading of the articles in question confirms that they are right to not see it that way. If editors base their !votes on "facts" that are disproven, whether before or after their !vote, then their !vote needs to be weighted down accordingly - not given full/extra weight as SM did. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 21:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- This seems to be a bit of a point of dispute in these discussions. I think some of the endorse editors look at the yellow rating and reasonably say, "with arguments on both sides and a clear 1 vs 3 division yellow is the only reasonable outcome." I can get behind that. However, I also agree with editors who note that there were clear errors in the summary of the arguments. I don't see how a reasonable close could state as fact that the source embraced the litter box hoax. That was a clear point of contention and if neither side convinced the other then we shouldn't treat it as some sort of consensus outcome. When doing a closing it's not just that the color needs to be right, the summaries need to be accurate as well. We don't have that here. At minimum editing the summary to reflect the actual state of the discussion is warranted. Personally, I think having a new closing is better. Springee (talk) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Gladly: to start, please take my comment in the context that the close review grew beyond your point.
- Overturn. Two distinct issues here:
- Imbalance and inaccuracy in the summary. Rather than fairly sum up both sides of the discussion, the close is weighted towards the unreliability perspective to an extent that does not reflect the genuine course of discussion. Vigorously contested assertions (e.g. the notion of
The Telegraph's unashamed embrace of the widely-debunked Litter boxes in schools hoax
) are treated as fact. At times S Marshall appears to be carrying on the argument in his own close (e.g.Towards the end of this, the "generally reliable" camp is reduced to a bold-face statement that reliable sources are allowed to make mistakes, which I receive as a concession that the article is misleading. And if the Telegraph has published a correction, then the "generally reliable" camp hasn't unearthed it.
) - The, um, let's call it "novel" interpretation of ONUS such that a supposedly "no consensus" close somehow ends up in effect a consensus to downgrade? I don't have much to add to what Barnards has already said: (1) ONUS is geared towards discussions about whether to include specific things like an image or a certain paragraph in an article, not broad discussions about the reliability of a source; and (2) there's an existing RfC finding consensus for general reliability, so that should be the assumed baseline we're working from.
- Imbalance and inaccuracy in the summary. Rather than fairly sum up both sides of the discussion, the close is weighted towards the unreliability perspective to an extent that does not reflect the genuine course of discussion. Vigorously contested assertions (e.g. the notion of
- S Marshall made an odd comment about the decision to adopt this interpretation:
In doing this, I removed the first mover advantage that the "generally reliable" side expected and I think relied on
. The part about editors advocating for reliability "relying on" a supposed first-mover advantage comes across to me as if he is taking the view these editors are abusing or at least leaning on procedure to get a preferred result. This does not seem to be a fair characterisation to me. - I don't see how S Marshall is INVOLVED, though. – Teratix ₵ 16:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support close. It was a very reasoned, balanced close. I would have preferred a "generally unreliable" close, but I accept that S Marshall made a good faith effort to close this RfC in a balanced and impartial manner. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 17:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn, and reclose per Berchanhimez. S. Marshall deserves some credit for stepping in where angels fear to tread, but a no-consensus outcome doesn't justify changes to the status quo. *Dan T.* (talk) 17:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- It explicitly does at WP:RSP, and in fact "no consensus" is part of the definition of WP:MREL. Loki (talk) 19:48, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Let's leave it for Part 2 to deal with. CNC (talk) 20:04, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- It explicitly does at WP:RSP, and in fact "no consensus" is part of the definition of WP:MREL. Loki (talk) 19:48, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse close and this relentless badgering of closers when a consensus doesn't go someone's way needs to stop. I've seen it a lot in the last year and if it's not stamped down on it's going to be next to impossible to find anyone to volunteer to close anything but the most obvious community discussion. Daveosaurus (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse close. It accurately reflects the discussion and the state of consensus (or lack thereof) on the topic; and the arguments it mentions are summarizing ones from the discussion, not new ones presented by the closer. The WP:QUO / WP:ONUS argument doesn't make sense to me - those policies are for article space, where we have no choice but to decide on one version even when we lack consensus. RSP isn't an article, it's a summary documenting where the community stands on specific sources; a lack of consensus can and should be documented there. No-consensus outcomes get lodged there as a matter of course; AFAIK that's how it has always worked. It would be misleading to do otherwise and would lead to disputes where people attempt to rely heavily on a source only to face conflicts and be told that there's no consensus on it. There is an entire category for no-consensus outcomes on RSP, and numerous entries on the table that use that specifically in their language; it makes no sense to not use that here. --Aquillion (talk) 19:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Summarizing a minority opinion that was strongly refuted, and the refutation of which was agreed with by a majority of editors commenting after the refutation, does not a no consensus finding make. Even if you believe that SM was not imposing their own opinion on the closure, the summary of the opinions presented and their relative strength was insufficient as it did not take into account the "turn of the tide" in !votes after the refutation, and in fact it tries to claim that after the refutation the reliable camp's arguments got worse - the exact opposite of what happened. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 21:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- endorse close. I think the language used could have appeared to be more neutral, but it is clear that there is no consensus on the telegraphs reliability on this topic. That some people seem to think consensus is needed to confirm there is no consensus seems nonsensical, unless we all do a close that could never be decided. I don't think the close is perfect but it's certainly good enough and every editor involved could probably be more useful spending time elsewhere. For transparency's sake I voted option 3 on the RFC and was deemed a SPA. LunaHasArrived (talk) 21:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn The assumption that people saying that mistakes happen were conceding that the specific example brought up was actually a mistake was not supported. That leaves a fundamentally damaged evaluation of the wider consensus as to whether there were mistakes in this area, which is a key aspect of changing the assumed reliability of this source. The result is an artificially strong consensus not supported by the arguments. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 22:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn. The only policy-based reason S Marshall's close was based on is whether or not The Daily Telegraph endorsed the Litter boxes in schools hoax. The conclusion S Marshall reached is that
The Telegraph's unashamed embrace of the widely-debunked Litter boxes in schools hoax is discussed at great length
. This is a WP:SUPERVOTE because it sides with Loki's original claim without any explanation. One of the central disputes of the RfC was whether or not the "Litter boxes in schools hoax" encompassed a student merely identifying as a cat, which is the falsehood The Telegraph supposedly said. The assumption that these were equivalent made it impossible to reach any other conclusion than Option 2 or 3, which I will show below.S Marshall's only mention of specific Option 1 arguments is thatthe "generally reliable" camp is reduced to a bold-face statement that reliable sources are allowed to make mistakes, which I receive as a concession that the article is misleading.
This misses the point, which is that The Telegraph promoting a blatant hoax is not equivalent to getting a detail in a story wrong. S Marshall did not address this in this point in their close because of the aforementioned SUPERVOTE, which assumed equivalence between kids using litter boxes and kids identifying as cats. If the equivalence was treated as a disputed point, theconcession that the article is misleading
matters much less, since it is no longer a concession that The Telegraph promoted a blatant hoax.Closers are also supposed to disregard votes not based on policy per WP:DISCARD, and not judge on headcount. S Marshall's close does not obey this.Consensus is not determined by counting heads or counting votes
, but S Marshall saysAlthough some members of the community have confidence that the Daily Telegraph is reliable on trans issues, this view is strongly disputed by significant numbers.
as an explanation of their decision. [1] The close also makes references to the controversy over homophobia, transgender breast milk, and other factors, but does not explain how those subpoints helped reach a decision. If the closer does not analyze a point I will assume it did not play a part in the decision.To summarize, the close began by assuming that Option 3 was correct on the most significant part of the discussion, and then judged the entire rest of the RfC on those grounds. This assumption should not have been made and a proper close would fairly summarize the dispute over whether implying a student identified as a cat is equivalent to saying students are using litter boxes in schools. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 00:21, 10 July 2024 (UTC)- It's actually worse, as S Marshall claims that the close is not based on the finding on whether the Daily Telegraph embraced the litterbox hoax. So there was no policy-based reason for the close. Samuelshraga (talk) 15:55, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn close. It is clear from this edit[2] that the closer had a POV that should have been declared. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:51, 10 July 2024 (UTC).
- The community has already found in a similar situation that voting in an RFC in the topic area does not make a closer WP:INVOLVED. Loki (talk) 03:03, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't just two discussions in the same topic area; it's two discussions about the reliability of the same source. BilledMammal (talk) 03:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, and in the previous situation I had !voted in an RFC whose result was directly relevant to the close. However, the community very clearly endorsed the close and overwhelmingly said I was not WP:INVOLVED.
- The thing you're missing here is that WP:INVOLVED is not about bias or opinion. It's closer to WP:COI: the point is that you cannot close a discussion that you participated in. But having an opinion on the discussion doesn't matter, that doesn't make you involved at all.
- In general, Wikipedia policies don't prevent an editor from doing something due to having expressed an opinion on that topic. Instead, they prevent editors from doing things because of concrete relationships with discussions or topic areas: you can't cite your own research and you can't close a discussion you !voted in, regardless of what you think of it. This is also the case over at the perennial WikiProject dispute where community consensus soundly rejected your interpretation, which I bring up to make the point that you appear to have similar misinterpretations of Wikipedia policy in multiple areas. Loki (talk) 03:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't just two discussions in the same topic area; it's two discussions about the reliability of the same source. BilledMammal (talk) 03:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- There's situations where there's only one correct POV. This is one of them. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 19:35, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Whatever the criticisms of the body of the closure may be, and there seem to be some, the closure is tainted because the closer did not declare a POV (whether that POV was "correct" or not). Xxanthippe (talk) 04:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC).
- The community has already found in a similar situation that voting in an RFC in the topic area does not make a closer WP:INVOLVED. Loki (talk) 03:03, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn (Option 5, but I would be happy with 2 too). Reading the original discussion, I thought that the accusations about inaccurate reporting of "litter boxes in schools" had been well argued against. In their initial statement, the closer appears not to consider these arguments, but simply labels the Telegraph's statements as misrepresentations. At the least the closer should have addressed these prominent arguments and explained why they did not agree with them. This implies to me an insufficiently in-depth analysis. The closer's revised statement says a little more on this topic, but I was shocked that the decisive step of their reasoning is an obvious non-sequitor: "The 'generally reliable' camp is reduced to a bold-face statement that reliable sources are allowed to make mistakes, which I receive as a concession that the article is misleading." This seems almost flippant; Wikipedia should be able to do better than this in analysing the evidence and arguments. JMCHutchinson (talk) 10:07, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse and overturn (I did 'participate' in the RFC although I didn't comment on the reliability of the Telegraph in this RFC, but I did comment on a previous RFC that the Telegraph was unreliable on this specific issue). The close that 'there is no consensus on the reliability of the Telegraph on transgender issue' (or WP:MREL), is IMO the correct reading of the discussion (so I endorse it). However, with apologies to an editor I respect, I do think the reasoning in getting there is flawed. The close doesn't engage with all the arguments and rebuttals in the discussion, dissatisfaction with which has lead to this review (not helped with how the RSP was updated). Given this is now the third RFC on the matter in a short space of time, a close that satisfies all involved (even if it doesn't agree with them) is sorely needed. I do wonder if the RSP had simply been updated with the plain "In regards to transgender issues the reliability of The Daily Telegraph is disputed.", without the additional details then we wouldn't be here. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:00, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn. I appreciate the sincere attempt on such a divided issue, but I believe that such a contentious non-consensus warranted a more conservative close, both in resolution and in wording.As others have noted, the close turned largely on one story, the notorious "cat" drama. That the closer refers to a story that categorically was not a "widely debunked litterbox hoax" in such terms does not inspire confidence that the arguments have been properly weighed. A story featuring elements of otherkin in schools is not automatically a "litterbox hoax". The incident in question happened, and absolutely nobody denies that. The school acknowledged it and reviewed its processes in the aftermath. I wrote out a transcript of the recording here for anyone still for some reason curious about this debacle. I won't rehash the arguments yet again but I don't think any fair weighting of the refutations can support a close describing this as a "debunked litterbox hoax" when there has been no hoax, no litterbox, and no debunking.As for the specific wording, as I raised on talk, the closer needlessly inserted the text "and gender critical views" into the closing statement, widening the unreliability notice beyond what was suggested. This was not part of the original RFC, and no evidence was presented either way as to the reliability of The Telegraph for "gender critical views". Editors may have personal opinions on how separable "gender critical views" are from trans issues or what the closer even means by "gender critical views", but that is a discussion in an of itself, and one which simply did not take place and whose outcome should not be assumed like this. This unsolicited addition is unwise in an already polarised RFC, and if this is overturned I would suggest a future closer stick to the wording of the RFC only and leave this particular can of worms unopened. Void if removed (talk) 11:51, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Support overall close because of what it isn't Overturn....needs another look per my post lower down Folks, let's look at what the structural result of the overall close is, which I think many folks have missed. It is "no consensus on trans issues" and "generally reliable on non-trans issues" I can't see people arguing for a close other than this. The "embrace of the cat story" statement should not be in there but that really doesn't change anything. And it probably needs a shorter more direct summary such as I just gave. If they were an admin, SMarshall would be in the top 5% of admins regarding knowledge and expertise to close this type of thing, so NAC is not an issue except maybe for the optics of it. North8000 (talk) 18:49, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Arguing that the close is fine because while it misrepresents the discussion, it gets you the answer you want is ... refreshingly direct, though sadly not unique here. If you
can't see people arguing for a close other than this
, you might read this comment above. Not to mention many of the other comments supporting overturn. Are we not people? Or can you just not see us? Samuelshraga (talk) 19:05, 10 July 2024 (UTC) - I encourage you to review the problems many of us have with this close. Similar to how an RfA that (pre-recent-changes to RfA) had a significant early support but was then followed by a “bombshell” that caused a turn of the tide, this discussion was started based on inaccurate representations of the source, which I will assume was not Loki’s intent. This was not called out immediately, and many people !voted while discussion of the initial claims was continuing. But a clear consensus emerged that the initial claims of misinformation were, to put it bluntly, wrong. They claimed the Telegraph said in their own voice things they didn’t, they claimed the Telegraph didn’t retract what other people had said and it merely reported on. And that refutation was widely accepted by a clear majority of editors who posted substantive comments after it was done.
- That is why people are believing there was a consensus here - after properly considering how to weight the !votes that were based on the initial inaccurate information, and/or solely based on their personal opinion whether they like the source or not, or of if the source is “biased” or not. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Samuelshraga: @Berchanhimez: I'd be happy to take a deeper dive on this and revisit but would like clarity on what I think you are saying that the correct close should have been. Is it that there was (simply) a consensus that they are a generally reliable source? (without the separate wording for trans issues) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- My personal reading of it, which I accept is not necessarily in line with what others may read, is that yes - those !voting for option 3/4, and many (but not necessarily most) for option 2, did not care about the veracity of the claims in the initial filing by Loki, and took them at face value. Very few of that group as a whole either provided clear arguments as to why the refutation by Chess and others should be discounted, and many of them admitted that their arguments fell apart once the refutations started coming through. Further, the “turn of the tide” to significantly more option 1 votes, and significantly more (if not all) votes for option 3/4 being based solely on bias or flat out lies, I believe that this all comes together to lead to a consensus that the source is, by our own policies, biased but generally reliable, even on the subject of transgender issues. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ugh, wrong link there, it’s supposed to go to the page about bias of a source not generally affecting its reliability, but mobile. Hopefully you know where I’m talking about, will fix later when I’m home. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:54, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- @North8000, I'm probably one of the less experienced editors here. I didn't come because I felt I would have been competent to close myself (had I not been involved), but because the close we got was so clearly flawed. That said, I agree with Berchanhimez's reading of the discussion. Samuelshraga (talk) 21:13, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- So the difference between your thoughts and the close which I supported is that the close said that there was no consensus on trans issues and your thought was that the result was that they are reliable on trans issues. (BTW my sentiment expressed at the RFC was that it should be #1, with #2 also being OK.) I took a harder look. IMO there was a plurality for #1 between #1 and #3 bordering on a consensus and if you include #2 sentiments regarding suitability to use on trans issues (a sort of "sufficiently reliable") then there would be a clear consensus for confirmed usability ("generally reliable") on trans issues. So now I think thhis sould get a second look. North8000 (talk) 21:32, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, that was my “rough count” too (remembering that it’s not a vote count). Combine that rough plurality for “reliable but biased” with the fact that the main arguments in favor of unreliability were contested and refuted and many editors agreed with the refutation, there is really no path to “no consensus” here. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 23:53, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- The analysis that caused me to reverse my position is this: The operative results regarding trans issues were in essence: 1. Prohibit use on trans issues (RFC choice #'s 3 & 4) 2. (RFC choice #'s 1 & 2) Don't prohibit use on trans issues. By this analysis (if arguments roughly follow head count) "don't prohibit" was overwhelmingly favored by a factor of 1.73 to 1.
- No, those weren't the options. There were four options, three if you exclude 4 for being essentially impossible to implement. 1 != 2 != 3, and people who voted 2 should not be assumed to support 1. Indeed many of those people explicitly said they were voting 2 because they did not support 1. Loki (talk) 17:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- The analysis that caused me to reverse my position is this: The operative results regarding trans issues were in essence: 1. Prohibit use on trans issues (RFC choice #'s 3 & 4) 2. (RFC choice #'s 1 & 2) Don't prohibit use on trans issues. By this analysis (if arguments roughly follow head count) "don't prohibit" was overwhelmingly favored by a factor of 1.73 to 1.
- Yes, that was my “rough count” too (remembering that it’s not a vote count). Combine that rough plurality for “reliable but biased” with the fact that the main arguments in favor of unreliability were contested and refuted and many editors agreed with the refutation, there is really no path to “no consensus” here. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 23:53, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- So the difference between your thoughts and the close which I supported is that the close said that there was no consensus on trans issues and your thought was that the result was that they are reliable on trans issues. (BTW my sentiment expressed at the RFC was that it should be #1, with #2 also being OK.) I took a harder look. IMO there was a plurality for #1 between #1 and #3 bordering on a consensus and if you include #2 sentiments regarding suitability to use on trans issues (a sort of "sufficiently reliable") then there would be a clear consensus for confirmed usability ("generally reliable") on trans issues. So now I think thhis sould get a second look. North8000 (talk) 21:32, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- My personal reading of it, which I accept is not necessarily in line with what others may read, is that yes - those !voting for option 3/4, and many (but not necessarily most) for option 2, did not care about the veracity of the claims in the initial filing by Loki, and took them at face value. Very few of that group as a whole either provided clear arguments as to why the refutation by Chess and others should be discounted, and many of them admitted that their arguments fell apart once the refutations started coming through. Further, the “turn of the tide” to significantly more option 1 votes, and significantly more (if not all) votes for option 3/4 being based solely on bias or flat out lies, I believe that this all comes together to lead to a consensus that the source is, by our own policies, biased but generally reliable, even on the subject of transgender issues. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Samuelshraga: @Berchanhimez: I'd be happy to take a deeper dive on this and revisit but would like clarity on what I think you are saying that the correct close should have been. Is it that there was (simply) a consensus that they are a generally reliable source? (without the separate wording for trans issues) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support close, this is a very tough debate to find any resolution for and I think that S Marshall's decision is a pretty fair and balanced choice. S Marshall highlighted the key aspect of the debate which is a general agreement on the bias of the Telegraph but a disagreement on how much that bias affects the paper's journalistic integrity. Saying that when dealing with the subject of trans people the Telegraph should be used carefully seems like a reasonable precaution. (I voted for option 2 on the basis that reviewing a number of the linked articles showed a fairly strong bias on the topic, my primary concerns being their deliberate misrepresentation and laundering of sources. If I was working on material related to the subject, I would want to cite more neutral and nuanced sources that had clarity and more journalistic integrity.) Gnisacc (talk) 20:51, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn per JoeJShmo, The Wordsmith, Berchanhimez, Samuelshraga, Teratix, Chess, Void if removed, etc. The close is frankly an inadequate and inaccurate summary of the discussion. Others have already noted multiple issues with the "litterbox hoax" paragraph, which treats one side of a hotly disputed point as fact and proceeds from there. Almost no weight is given to the rebuttals, which disputed not only whether the Telegraph "embraced" the story, but whether the story was an instance of the hoax and whether it even was a hoax at all. I do not believe the original text supports the bizarre claim that these users were "reduced" to arguing that the Telegraph is "allowed to make mistakes". The next paragraph that summarizes the rest of the RfC is equally bizarre. It devotes no attention to the handful of journal articles which were held up multiple times as evidence of the Telegraph’s supposed "unreliability", but in actuality explored only the source’s bias. It highlights a single brief comment one user made about Julie Bindel (whose "platforming" as an opinion columnist would indicate bias, not reliability) but fails to mention more significant points of debate such as the Thoughtful Therapists issue, which was brought up in the RfC's opening statement and rebutted at length by multiple users. And it elides the well-reasoned rebuttals by simply saying that "there was discussion", while neglecting to evaluate the relative merits of those discussions. I do not have confidence that the close properly engaged with the strengths and weaknesses of the arguments being made on both sides. Rather, the close seems to treat the fact that the source's reliability was vociferously disputed as justification enough. Astaire (talk) 21:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse - The close was a reasonable read of the discussion and came to a very narrow decision. All of the arguments for overturning focus entirely on process wonkery & nitpicking word choice in order to try and unravel the close by tugging on a loose thread. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 16:53, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I brought this here because the closer refused to amend his egregious word choice on his user talk page and insisted that he came to it after weighing all arguments. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:19, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- "egregious," please, let's not be hyperbolic. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 19:57, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, so you think that
unashamed embrace of the widely-debunked [conspiracy theory]
in place of sayingA teacher at Rye College, a state secondary in East Sussex, was recorded telling a pupil who refused to accept her classmate was a cat that she was despicable.
, of which all they got wrong was that the cat was a rhetorical device, the latter being consensus, is a mostly fair and accurate representation of the discussion. I do not see how one could arrive at that conclusion. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:08, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, so you think that
- "egregious," please, let's not be hyperbolic. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 19:57, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I brought this here because the closer refused to amend his egregious word choice on his user talk page and insisted that he came to it after weighing all arguments. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:19, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. Look, I'm not going to lose sleep over some minor changes to the wording per the OP's concerns, if that's the ultimate result here, but for my part, I think this was a mostly reasonable summary of the results of the discussion. Did I feel there was a bit of unnecessary color commentary with pointed observations about the source frame as objective facts? Yeah, I did get some twinges about that while reading the close, and I think it's worth S Marshal taking that into consideration in the future. But I rather suspect that, rather than this being a case of the closer trying to interject unnecessary personal perspective into the result, it was a conscious rhetorical method for acknowledging the understandable and unavoidable emotional subtext of the dispute. I get the feeling that S Marshal recognized that there was really only one way to close this discussion under existing policy and consensus of the discussion itself, but was uncomfortable doing so without paying some recognition to the circumstances under which some editors have come to dislike the source. So he called the spade for the spade in a way that would make the Telegraph skeptics at least marginally less likely to feel that their sentiments had been dismissed wholesale. But any caveats not withstanding, I think S Marshal did an adequate job with this close, given the complexity of the issues and the highly divisive nature of the discussion. Personally I would have been marginally more supportive of a straight "no consensus" result as opposed to "reliability disputed", but this a fraught area, and we have to start finding a way to come together on these issues (or at least reigning in the constant relitigation of habitual issues. In that light, I think we could have gotten a lot worse here. I understand the quibbles, and I came close to casting a different !vote here, but considering all factors, I don't think S Marshal's something-for-everyone approach here was arbitrary, unintentional, or ill-advised. Further, I think there's more to be gained by just embracing an overall reasonable close than by micromanaging every last sentence into a form that is most pleasing to the majority, even if I was a part of that majority and even if I feel that the result would be more ideal. For the benefit of procedural efficiency and community harmony, I think we need to start leaning back towards the traditional tendency of just letting the initial close stay, warts and all, so long as it does not obviously and massively misrepresent the actual consensus. I don't love every syllable of S Marshal's close, but I still think that it was a well-executed one made under difficult circumstances, in the final analysis, and I don't blame him for trying to pay some lip service to the concerns of the minority. SnowRise let's rap 19:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think most Overturners here are objecting mainly to the colourful commentary. I have no problem with the
willing warrior in the war on wokery
or even thegives platform to the most flagrantly gender-critical tracts by anti-woke activists
comments in the close. The narrow overturners object tounashamed embrace of the widely-debunked Litter boxes in schools hoax
because it clearly misrepresents as consensus what was only one side of a very prominent part of the discussion. The broad overturners think that given that practically all of the RfC nomination's accusations were directly misrepresented and were not, on any examination, evidence of unreliability, the arguments for unreliability were entirely without weight and should have been discounted (in this context, the question of whether they feel thatfeel that their sentiments had been dismissed wholesale
is immaterial, as long as the dismissal is explained). - Whether you stay endorsing the close or not aside, I don't appreciate the idea that this is about
micromanaging every last sentence into a form that is most pleasing to the majority
, it seems like a baseless minimisation of actual concerns that directly concern what you think close reviews should be about: that the close if allowed to stand wouldobviously and massively misrepresent the actual consensus
. Samuelshraga (talk) 09:01, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think most Overturners here are objecting mainly to the colourful commentary. I have no problem with the
- Endorse: I don't want to spend too long saying things which have already been said, but I know in recent discussions and here some users have opined that anyone saying ~"I'd just be using the same rationale as X, let me just say 'per X'" should be discounted and people should be required to be repetitive, so with apologies to whichever panel of three admins has to close this discussion (to avoid it being challenged) for making it longer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ : both the "involved" argument and the argument that the close was a supervote are unconvincing. The "involvement" is not only tangential (as amply discussed above), but in the other direction, so unless the implication is that another closer would've found outright consensus that the source was unreliable(?), the argument doesn't make sense. In turn, as many users have noted above, while closing this as either "option 1 because I know option 2 voters really meant option 1" or "option 3 because I know option 2 voters really meant option 3" (as some people want) would've been a supervote, "there was no consensus →means→ close as no consensus" is just reading the arguments (and "no consensus →means→ no consensus" is just following WP:MREL).
It is unsurprising that much discussion here is relitigating the same points as the RFC, as if saying "actually they were never wrong, it was proven they were never wrong, by me saying they weren't wrong" several more times will make it true. Indeed, re the suggestions below about ways to align how closes should occur and be reacted to vs how closes are actually reacted to, and the issues with those suggestions (e.g.: mandating multiple people volunteer to find time to close discussions would mean discussions go unclosed for even longer, potentially until stale, wasting/filibustering the effort), the other obvious possibility is to write down in the guidelines that all closures are only "prospective, non-finalized" closures until sustained by an AN discussion where the participants relitigate positions a second time: while I'm not sure that would be the best option, it seems like it could be the easiest one to get people on board with because it's how we see many people already operate... -sche (talk) 02:42, 12 July 2024 (UTC)- If you say "per X" and X's original claims have been proven inaccurate/misleading, and you don't address that fact, then your !vote will be downweighted accordingly - just as the initial claims should be downweighted when a refutation that enjoys broad support from those actually discussing the topic (rather than drive by !voting) would. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 00:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse close - As has now become clear after further discussion here, while some people had issue with some of the wording of the close, the ultimate outcome of it being a "no consensus" seems to be agreed upon here and is a good reading of the original discussion, since there simply was no consensus on the topic, so the close to no consensus and marking it MREL for transgender issues is the appropriate outcome. Raladic (talk) 15:51, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- At least amend the third and fourth paragraphs to reflect the actual consensus. In cases where there are comparable numbers of good-faith !votes, finding in favor of either of them (or splitting the difference) should necessitate a close summary mentioning why a given argument did not prevail. The close should summarize the reasoning of any significant minority/non-plurality, but should also make it clear what the major arguments against that reasoning were and how they were weighted. In cases where the closer finds consensus that does not align with a non-trivial majority of good-faith !votes, it is particularly imperative they explain why arguments in the majority camp were downweighted.In this close, only a rationale of Option 3 !voters is presented at any length, and it is implied there was consensus agreement with this rationale. However, the close does not address the various refutations of that rationale that, necessarily, were strong and numerous enough to result in Option 3 not gaining consensus. This is especially problematic given that there was a solid majority against Option3/4. Even if we count every "Option 1/2" !vote toward Option 2 and count every "Option 2/3" and "Option 4" !vote towards Option 3, we still have roughly 60 Option 1 to 49 Option 3 (and ~16 Option 2). A more charitable accounting (for example, assigning any "Option 1 or maybe 2" !votes, like my own, to "Option 1") yields a more lopsided result, and splitting the options into 1/2 vs 3/4 reveals something approaching a 60% supermajority ~75 1/2 to 49 3/4 (and that's still counting all "2/3" !votes toward Option 3). Any finding against Option 1 should thus expand on why this wasn't enough for consensus (which could be perfectly reasonable if the strength of the !votes just wasn't there--but that still should be explained!), meanwhile any finding for Option 3 would absolutely need to demonstrate a very substantial imbalance in argument strength. JoelleJay (talk) 00:50, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that there was not consensus for Option 3, but the closer did not claim there was. Meanwhile, you've missed the obvious reason why there wasn't consensus for Option 1: by your own count, there were 60 Option 1 voters but 65 voters who were against it. Since there wasn't a consensus for any option, there was no consensus, which has special meaning at WP:RSP and isn't just "status quo wins". Loki (talk) 05:27, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- I’m interested, since you seem to want to vote count, for you to do a few things. First, split the proportion up into “before the refutation” and “after the refutation” to examine how the discussion evolved over time. Second, count up how many of the 65 votes on the “against it” side were based solely on bias, or did not address the refutation of the claims at all. Thirdly, count up how many people agreed with the refutation after it was posted versus disagreed - without assuming what anyone who didn’t comment directly on why would’ve said.
- If you do this, rather than trying to shoehorn the vote count to your favor, you will see why many people are arguing there actually was a consensus present. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 06:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- What "refutation"?
- Also, obviously all the things you are saying are simply not how closing discussions works. The closer can evaluate the arguments but they are under no obligation to pretend that an argument that you happened to find particularly convincing was objectively strong. Loki (talk) 19:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Closers are expected to determine consensus based on
the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy.
- In this context, a good close will need to give little to no weight to !votes that argued the Telegraph endorsed the litter boxes in schools hoax (as this was disproved by the articles provided in support of it, and thus is not a quality argument), and little to no weight to !votes that argued that it should be considered unreliable on grounds of bias (as this is contradicted by policy). BilledMammal (talk) 19:32, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Whether or not it "was disproved" is a matter for the closer to decide. The closer decided it was not disproved. All you are saying is that you disagree with the closer. Loki (talk) 22:44, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- This case is unusually clear cut. You said "this source endorses this hoax", and provided an article where the source said "this is a hoax". It is not possible for a reasonable close to say that it was not disproved. BilledMammal (talk) 00:03, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- If I say that a source endorses the conspiracy theory that the moon landings were faked, and the source says "There's a common conspiracy theory that the moon landings were faked, which is not true. However, look at this evidence that the 1969 moon landing was filmed on a sound stage in California.", is that or is that not "endorsing the conspiracy theory"? Loki (talk) 00:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Obviously not. It's called presenting all sides of a story. Otherwise, we'd only hear half the story. You may think that hoaxes are never newsworthy - what would the news report on if not saying "it's a hoax, but look at the evidence that the other side uses to try and convince you it's not a hoax"? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 00:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- It could, depending on the specifics. However, it's a false equivalence.
- What the Telegraph said after calling it a hoax was say that people do identify as animals. This is true, and nobody in the RfC claimed otherwise. BilledMammal (talk) 00:24, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, but they said this specific student identified as an animal at this specific school with the support of the administration, all of which is false and which fulfills all the pillars of the hoax except for the literal litter boxes. Loki (talk) 01:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Everyone, regardless of your views regarding this, it is clear that (maybe a little less than) half of the RfC participants agreed with Chess's refutation against that incident being an endorsement of the litterbox hoax. Let's accept that and move on without directly arguing the RfC again. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:09, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The issue is you proved none of that:
they said this specific student identified as an animal
- based on your mistaken understanding of presuppositionswith the support of the administration
- based on your definition of "support" (which you extend to "calling students despicable" - in other words "telling students off for bullying")all of which is false
- The school said one thing, parents said another, and the Ofsted report declined to commentfulfills all the pillars of the hoax
- based on your definition of the pillars
- For a closer to say that your close was not disproved they would need to say that every one of these four claims was true. No reasonable close can do that. Aaron Liu does make a good point, and so I will step back from this discussion now, but I felt it was important to make this point clear. BilledMammal (talk) 02:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that no reasonable person who reviews all the facts could conclude Loki's claimd (there's a freakin' TAPE RECORDING OF THE TEACHER calling the girl "dispicable" for not accepting a cat identity, FFS! How much more evidence is needed here?!).
- I suppose the real question here is, what happens when a large MINORITY of Wikipe#ians all assert something that is objectively false, in lock step with each other? (Which does not have to be in bad faith, and I do not say that it is, here). I'm not sure the mechanisms exist to deal with this effectively, which is a dangerous precedent, and expect more of it, and not only on this topic from this POV, either. 73.2.86.132 (talk) 04:16, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- It was later clarified that the recorder brought up the scenario of a student identifying as a cat for her rhetorical devices.
If that happens, the WMF and checkusers first see if sockpuppetry or states are involved. If not, then we simply assert that "something" is true, since the scenario of them all being wrong at that specific time is unlikely and we have WP:NOTTRUTH. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- It was later clarified that the recorder brought up the scenario of a student identifying as a cat for her rhetorical devices.
- I think if you really wanted to step back you wouldn't have insisted on getting the last word, but regardless I think that this argument is going in circles enough that I'm not even bothering to read your comment fully. Loki (talk) 04:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, but they said this specific student identified as an animal at this specific school with the support of the administration, all of which is false and which fulfills all the pillars of the hoax except for the literal litter boxes. Loki (talk) 01:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- If I say that a source endorses the conspiracy theory that the moon landings were faked, and the source says "There's a common conspiracy theory that the moon landings were faked, which is not true. However, look at this evidence that the 1969 moon landing was filmed on a sound stage in California.", is that or is that not "endorsing the conspiracy theory"? Loki (talk) 00:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- This case is unusually clear cut. You said "this source endorses this hoax", and provided an article where the source said "this is a hoax". It is not possible for a reasonable close to say that it was not disproved. BilledMammal (talk) 00:03, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Whether or not it "was disproved" is a matter for the closer to decide. The closer decided it was not disproved. All you are saying is that you disagree with the closer. Loki (talk) 22:44, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Closers are expected to determine consensus based on
by your own count, there were 60 Option 1 voters but 65 voters who were against it.
That's not true -- a significant portion of the 16 "2" !votes included in the 65 were "1 or 2", which clearly are not "against Option 1". 67 people considered Option 1 to be acceptable, at most 61 did not. Whether that warrants "NC, therefore Option 2" should actually be explained by the close in a way that accurately summarizes what the arguments were and how they were weighed; this is not achieved by repeating a major contention from Option 3 as if it had consensus. JoelleJay (talk) 02:58, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that there was not consensus for Option 3, but the closer did not claim there was. Meanwhile, you've missed the obvious reason why there wasn't consensus for Option 1: by your own count, there were 60 Option 1 voters but 65 voters who were against it. Since there wasn't a consensus for any option, there was no consensus, which has special meaning at WP:RSP and isn't just "status quo wins". Loki (talk) 05:27, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn per @JoeJShmo—and maybe we need some language in policy discouraging NACs on RfC’s of certain length or impact. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 04:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- This should be posted in the Participants section. Parabolist (talk) 18:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Parabolist: WP:Be bold. I've moved it to the correct place. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- This should be posted in the Participants section. Parabolist (talk) 18:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn per Red-tailed hawk. Spy-cicle💥 Talk? 21:59, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse The overturners over-read the close. It was patent from the discussion and the evidence from the paper, that the paper mishandled and was irresponsible with people's lives in the so called 'litter box' series. By policy, Wikipedia values living people's info and their lives more than that. The paper was either incompetent in reporting on a delicate classroom discussion unaware of what that context means for classroom control and student safety, including, fighting, harm and self harm risk of young people, or the paper was malicious in favour of whatever hobby horse it is on, perhaps both, and either way, unreliable by the standards Wikipedia needs. The close followed from the discussion and properly read consensus. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- A competent close would need to factor in that half were not convinced. The close review is not for you to re-argue the RfC. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- No need for your repetitious condescension. Were your arguments any good, you would not have to keep repeating them, especially to editors with significant experience in RFCs. It's the overturn argument that is trying to re-argue that the evidence did not show what it indeed showed. Your repetitious link is not even responsive to what I said, and merely shows bad arguments about a so-called half in regard to basically nugatory, when not irrelevant observations. But the evidence was significant, as I said. And the well argued consensus, drew the correct close, no matter your now odd and senseless appeal to counting heads, or your quibbling over phrases in the close. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:07, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Alanscottwalker this is by far the most condescending message in this discussion and the closest thing I can recall seeing to a personal attack. I suggest you withdraw it and make your point without needlessly personalising things. The repetitiousness is the presenting of opinion as fact that is being done almost entirely by a small number of those in favour of the Telegraph being regarded as generally reliable. Thryduulf (talk) 19:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not in the least, I have not repeated anything,I only made two comments, and I'm not the one saying SMarshall was acting incompetantly.
- In the past few months, we now have a history you and I where you come and complain about facts and opinions. It should be plain to you that in a forum for securing things like, 'endorse someone's else's statement', it necessarily a matter of opinion. Perhaps you just either don't or just refuse to understand my comments in these context, perhaps it is cultural. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Apologies if I was unclear, but only the first two sentences were related to your comment. I agree you have not been one of those being repetitious or presenting opinion as fact. Thryduulf (talk) 21:15, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
It's the overturn argument that is trying to re-argue that the evidence did not show what it indeed showed.
No, what it (or endorse arguments) should argue is whether what is "shown" has much hold among an existing discussion's participants.Usually, reviews are initiated because someone disputes the outcome stated by the closing editor (e.g., a summary statement that some editors find confusing or incorrect), rather than the decision to discourage further discussion.
I linked to my prior comment so I wouldn't have to copy-paste how I explained this idea more.Before requesting review, understand that review should not be used as an opportunity to re-argue the underlying dispute, and is only intended for use when there is a problem with the close itself.
— WP:CLOSECHALLENGEyour now odd and senseless appeal to counting heads
I have never counted nor do I intend to count to show that an argument has hold among the participants. You can take a sample from the discussion and see !votes that argue similar to or per Chess.
7_template� It's not quibbling when it asserts a consensus that isn't there and people directly quote it from RSP. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:14, 10 August 2024 (UTC)- What the closer drew was the correct conclusion of consensus from the discussion and the evidence. I know you don't agree with it, you have said it over and over. But your arguments did not convince me or others before me, you will just have to live with that. And yes you are counting when you say half, and contend it by implication of some else's statement. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:47, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- There were many before you that agree with my argument. To say that I or Chess did not convince a substantial amount of participants is simply not true, and just in my opinion which you need not to satisfy (nor do you need to satisfy anything), you need to address that. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:52, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's true that you and Chess convinced a substantial amount of participants. However it is also true that you did not convince a substantial number of participants. What matters is not which group was the larger but whether there was, overall, a consensus. Thryduulf (talk) 21:57, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- But you were not convincing enough. So consensus was against your position. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Thryduulf's comment. However, I don't see how anyone could come up with the conclusion that there is a consensus for GUNREL after a good reading as you claim, as I have seen no arguments for that conclusion. After reading the rebuttals against claim of perpetuating the litterbox hoax and the proportion of !voters convinced (call this "counting" if you want, I think it's correctly measuring consensus as it's towards evaluating an argument), I don't see how one can find consensus that it is patent that the Telegraph perpetuated the hoax. Additionally, even after you factor out the bludgeoning, it seems to me that the only rebuttals unaddressed are arguing against option 3. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:25, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if you're addressing me, but I advocated for MREL in the RFC and have argued in this review in favour of their being no consensus. I agree there is was no consensus for GUNREL. Thryduulf (talk) 23:47, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I take a similar stance and only my first sentence was addressing your comment. It's funny how history repeats itself onto others, with you also doing the same thing today. The unknown secrets of the universe. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:35, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Since I am endorsing the close, I'm not sure why you are saying this, perhaps if I said 'counter-consensus against your argument', it would have been better. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:37, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Because it was patent from the discussion that the Telegraph did not embrace outright falsehoods such as the litterboxes hoax. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:12, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Your view is your view, you saying the same thing over again, is no help. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Because it was patent from the discussion that the Telegraph did not embrace outright falsehoods such as the litterboxes hoax. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:12, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if you're addressing me, but I advocated for MREL in the RFC and have argued in this review in favour of their being no consensus. I agree there is was no consensus for GUNREL. Thryduulf (talk) 23:47, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Thryduulf's comment. However, I don't see how anyone could come up with the conclusion that there is a consensus for GUNREL after a good reading as you claim, as I have seen no arguments for that conclusion. After reading the rebuttals against claim of perpetuating the litterbox hoax and the proportion of !voters convinced (call this "counting" if you want, I think it's correctly measuring consensus as it's towards evaluating an argument), I don't see how one can find consensus that it is patent that the Telegraph perpetuated the hoax. Additionally, even after you factor out the bludgeoning, it seems to me that the only rebuttals unaddressed are arguing against option 3. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:25, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- There were many before you that agree with my argument. To say that I or Chess did not convince a substantial amount of participants is simply not true, and just in my opinion which you need not to satisfy (nor do you need to satisfy anything), you need to address that. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:52, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- What the closer drew was the correct conclusion of consensus from the discussion and the evidence. I know you don't agree with it, you have said it over and over. But your arguments did not convince me or others before me, you will just have to live with that. And yes you are counting when you say half, and contend it by implication of some else's statement. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:47, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Alanscottwalker this is by far the most condescending message in this discussion and the closest thing I can recall seeing to a personal attack. I suggest you withdraw it and make your point without needlessly personalising things. The repetitiousness is the presenting of opinion as fact that is being done almost entirely by a small number of those in favour of the Telegraph being regarded as generally reliable. Thryduulf (talk) 19:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Neither is presenting your view without any evidence and refusing to provide them when asked. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:23, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Stop your bludgeoning, Aaron Liu. You already know I referred to the evidence in the RFC. You already know you judge that evidencence differently, and you should already know that I don't think your view demonstrates any serious care about reliability for the encyclopedia, and you just think any source will do for the pedia, no matter the context. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- You are putting words into my mouth. I do not see how replying to one, conitnuous subthread is bludgeoning or where you've referred (or, preferably linked) to specific evidence or rules. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- While I don't think that you're bludgeoning either, I do think that this thread is kinda pointless and both of you should take a step back from responding to each other. Loki (talk) 22:38, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- You are putting words into my mouth. I do not see how replying to one, conitnuous subthread is bludgeoning or where you've referred (or, preferably linked) to specific evidence or rules. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Stop your bludgeoning, Aaron Liu. You already know I referred to the evidence in the RFC. You already know you judge that evidencence differently, and you should already know that I don't think your view demonstrates any serious care about reliability for the encyclopedia, and you just think any source will do for the pedia, no matter the context. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- No need for your repetitious condescension. Were your arguments any good, you would not have to keep repeating them, especially to editors with significant experience in RFCs. It's the overturn argument that is trying to re-argue that the evidence did not show what it indeed showed. Your repetitious link is not even responsive to what I said, and merely shows bad arguments about a so-called half in regard to basically nugatory, when not irrelevant observations. But the evidence was significant, as I said. And the well argued consensus, drew the correct close, no matter your now odd and senseless appeal to counting heads, or your quibbling over phrases in the close. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:07, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Comments like this that consist solely of your personal opinion and are based on, at best, a misunderstanding/incomplete reading of the actual reporting they did should be down-weighted accordingly. This discussion isn't about "valu[ing] people's lives" or not. It's about whether the source was reliable or not. Being indelicate does not make them unreliable. And the vast majority of option 3/4 supporters were unable to actually provide concrete evidence of unreliability - as evidenced by the fact you are now "tugging at heartstrings" (multiple times) here to try and encourage the eventual re-close to ignore that fact. It doesn't matter how many people !voted for unreliability when their arguments were as poor and non-policy based as this comment from you. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 20:29, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Really? So somehow contend you are not sharing your opinion? Opinion is what these forums are for and your opinion apparently is the other sides arguments are poor. And I think your arguments are poor and I have stated why. I already said it is about reliability in issue and why the paper is an unreliable narrator based on the evidence. That the closer did not see what you claim to see, happens, you just have to live with it sometimes. And sometimes accept, no you were unconvincing, to the closer, to me, and to others. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- When the only "evidence" produced is a blatant misrepresentation (whether intentional or not) of what the source actually did/said, and that point is correctly brought up during the discussion and not refuted, then the closer needs to take that into account. If you only convinced editors by misleading/misrepresenting the source, that needs to be taken into account. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:08, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've lost count now of how many times people have told you that what arguments were and were not refuted is a matter of opinion, and no opinion on the matter is shared by an overwhelming majority of participants. Can you please stop presenting your opinion as if it were somehow factual. Thryduulf (talk) 21:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- When the arguments of the side arguing "but it's not false" are reduced to "well I want it to be true so it must be!" after they are refuted, then that refutation succeeded. This is regardless of whether the "losing" side openly admitted it or not. It is not a vote count. It is about the strength of the arguments. And arguments that people don't openly agree with but have no refutation to are the weakest type of argument there is.You have continued to claim that because many people did not "openly" voice that they were wrong, they can't be considered to have been wrong. And that's simply not how consensus works. If they were proven wrong, and they couldn't disprove that proof, they were wrong whether they admit it or not. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Once again you are claiming your interpretation as if it were objective fact. It is not and it does not and will not become so by virtue of repetition. Thryduulf (talk) 21:58, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- And you're still not providing any evidence that the refutation was refuted. The onus is on you, who is claiming the refutation was not strong, to provide some evidence of that which was present in the initial discussion other than "not enough votes agreeing with it". -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 22:03, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- The evidence is in the discussion, that you are wrong about what it portends does not make it disappear. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:14, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Then you should be more than capable of providing diffs or quotes of that refutation. Claiming something is true doesn't mean there's evidence just because you want there to be. This has been the common tactic of yourself and others repetitively claiming "but the discussion" without being able to provide any evidence whatsoever of your claims that there was a refutation of the refutation. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 22:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- The evidence is in the discussion, that you are wrong about what it portends does not make it disappear. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:14, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- And you're still not providing any evidence that the refutation was refuted. The onus is on you, who is claiming the refutation was not strong, to provide some evidence of that which was present in the initial discussion other than "not enough votes agreeing with it". -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 22:03, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Once again you are claiming your interpretation as if it were objective fact. It is not and it does not and will not become so by virtue of repetition. Thryduulf (talk) 21:58, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- When the arguments of the side arguing "but it's not false" are reduced to "well I want it to be true so it must be!" after they are refuted, then that refutation succeeded. This is regardless of whether the "losing" side openly admitted it or not. It is not a vote count. It is about the strength of the arguments. And arguments that people don't openly agree with but have no refutation to are the weakest type of argument there is.You have continued to claim that because many people did not "openly" voice that they were wrong, they can't be considered to have been wrong. And that's simply not how consensus works. If they were proven wrong, and they couldn't disprove that proof, they were wrong whether they admit it or not. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I did no such thing. Your statement is unreliable. And you are wrong in your characterization of the evidence. I assume you wish me now to say IMO, as if drawing conclusions is not a matter of inference and implication drawn by the individual. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've lost count now of how many times people have told you that what arguments were and were not refuted is a matter of opinion, and no opinion on the matter is shared by an overwhelming majority of participants. Can you please stop presenting your opinion as if it were somehow factual. Thryduulf (talk) 21:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- When the only "evidence" produced is a blatant misrepresentation (whether intentional or not) of what the source actually did/said, and that point is correctly brought up during the discussion and not refuted, then the closer needs to take that into account. If you only convinced editors by misleading/misrepresenting the source, that needs to be taken into account. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:08, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Really? So somehow contend you are not sharing your opinion? Opinion is what these forums are for and your opinion apparently is the other sides arguments are poor. And I think your arguments are poor and I have stated why. I already said it is about reliability in issue and why the paper is an unreliable narrator based on the evidence. That the closer did not see what you claim to see, happens, you just have to live with it sometimes. And sometimes accept, no you were unconvincing, to the closer, to me, and to others. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Your comment, like the close, is a bizarre reading of the discussion. Loki's opener, and the discussion, didn't turn only on the "the litterbox series", and the outcome of even that section of the discussion was not simply acceptance of the claim of unreliability.
- RfC nomination contained 14 links to Telegraph articles, alleging they are examples of
going beyond simple bias and directly saying false things about trans people or trans issues
. Of those 14, from the discussion at RS/N, at least 9 of them did not in fact directly say false things. As far as I can tell this is now uncontested. The remaining 3-5 ("the litterbox series", though 2 of those don't actually directly make the cat claim) are contested about a single claim. Somehow closer took this to mean that the parts of the discussion worthy of mention concerned only the (single) subject of the remaining 3-5 articles, not the (many more) unreliability claims that were debunked, nor the secondary sources that did not say what closer claimed they did. Closer goes on to misrepresent the status of the outstanding claims of false reporting as accepted, rather than contested. - You might have important points to make about journalistic ethics vis-a-vis whether
paper was either incompetent in reporting on a delicate classroom discussion unaware of what that context means for classroom control and student safety, including, fighting, harm and self harm risk of young people, or the paper was malicious in favour of whatever hobby horse it is on
but these opinions are irrelevant to the topic at hand - did the close reflect the consensus at RS/N - and are even irrelevant to the underlying topic of the reliability of DT for this site. Samuelshraga (talk) 21:24, 10 August 2024 (UTC)- Did the close represent the discussion. I already said, yes. Your counts may be interesting to you but it is your counts that are not relevant. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's not actually any counts that matter. It's the strength of the arguments. And arguments (like yours) that are based on blatant misrepresentation (read: lies) about what the source did/didn't say need to be weighted accordingly (i.e. next to no weight). -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- There is no strength to your arguments, because what you argue is just not true, or you misunderstand or mistake. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:55, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not counting votes, I'm counting false claims. It turns out that Loki made more false claims in the opening to the RfC than he could find in all the Telegraph stories about trans issues put together, but if that's not relevant to you... well I don't think we will reach any form of agreement. Samuelshraga (talk) 21:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstood and then over read him. It is like your somehow not understanding why my comment addresses the so-called litter box unreliable reporting because that part of the close where some think they have a smoking gun against Smarshall. Its just a bad day for the pedia when some go to the mat for such bad sourcing for the encyclopedia Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- They didn't report the "so called litter box" as fact. They reported it as the claims of an involved individual. Or are you saying that news organizations should be unreliable if they report on what Trump says that turns out to be false after he said it, but is plausible and neither proven nor disproven at the time of reporting? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 22:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
They didn't report the "so called litter box" as fact. They reported it as the claims of an involved individual.
I don't get what you mean. They didn't report anything about a litter box, nor did they attribute it to someone instead of reporting it as fact. The article text in question isA school teacher told a pupil she was “despicable” after she refused to accept that her classmate identifies as a cat.
(not to mention that all of us should be arguing the close itself) Aaron Liu (talk) 23:29, 10 August 2024 (UTC)- That's my point. That's why I put it in quotation marks. They reported that the schoolteacher said something, and that was what was said by the student's parents. And that is not some failure of reporting - they reported what they were told by a reliable source (the student's parents) about what the teacher told them. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 23:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- They didn't report the "so called litter box" as fact. They reported it as the claims of an involved individual. Or are you saying that news organizations should be unreliable if they report on what Trump says that turns out to be false after he said it, but is plausible and neither proven nor disproven at the time of reporting? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 22:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I dispute that I made a single false claim anywhere in that RFC. Loki (talk) 04:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Loki, you claimed they endorsed the litter box hoax. Not only did they not do so, they explicitly called it a hoax in one of the sources you presented in support of you claim BilledMammal (talk) 04:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Here is an article that you accused of
directly saying false things
. And this one. And this one. When what it transpired on examination were these were all articles that did not contain a single objective factual inaccuracy, but simply quoted people you don't like and described them in terms with which you don't agree. Or tell us in which sentence they are directly saying false things in this article for example? Should I go through the rest? - Because since you've felt free to accuse people of lying, I wonder at what point does this misrepresentation become blatant dishonesty? Maybe you have abysmal reading comprehension skills, or you were so motivated to find evidence against the Telegraph that you somehow misrepresented these articles unintentionally at first. But after it's been pointed out? So many times? Feel free not to answer. I already know, nothing's been refuted, your evidence all still stands. I didn't write this for you, I wrote it for anyone who wonders why some editors are so outraged by the downgrade being made on such shoddy evidence from such clearly bad-faith actors. Samuelshraga (talk) 06:14, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- This thread got extremely combative, extremely quickly. Nobody is going to be able to convince anyone with a conversation like this. LunaHasArrived (talk) 14:06, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I already explained what false things they are saying, but if you need it spelled out to you:
- 1.
Maya Forstater, who is on the board of Sex Matters, a human-rights organisation that campaigns for clarity on sex in law and policy
: I didn't even catch this one the first time TBH, but Sex Matters is not that, it's an anti-trans hate group. The original thing I identified as false in this article was the implication that James Esses was a subject-matter expert. - 2.
She said the tweet contravened the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, adopted by the UN General Assembly in 1979.
where "she" is an activist being quoted as an expert. This claim they are repeating is simply and obviously false. - 3.
Her comments were welcomed by Sex Matters, a women’s rights group.
Sex Matters isn't a women's rights group, they're an anti-trans hate group. - 4.
Milli Hill, a campaigner for women’s rights in childbirth, said: “Male people, however they identify or describe themselves, cannot breastfeed.”
Again, claim they are repeating is simply and obviously false. - I'd like to request you strike your accusations. I'm fine with people saying my argument was wrong or unconvincing, but we're crossing the line here into accusing me of directly lying. That's not true, I stand by every word I said in that RFC. Loki (talk) 17:48, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- The UK doesn't register hate groups as charitable organizations. Your opinion that their advocacy makes them a "hate group" is not cause to silence their opinions/views. Whether you like it or not, Sex Matters advocates for "clarity" in law that many people think matters.Nobody can force you to change your opinion on things. But Wikipedia does not censor ideas just because you don't like them. And you were unable to provide any actual evidence of your claims - so you were directly (whether intentionally or not) lying. The fact your lies garnered people "supporting" your opinion does not change the fact they are not and were never evidence of unreliability. Having people claim they agree with you does not change the fact your basis is not in line with policy. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 18:21, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- The UK doesn't intentionally register hate groups as charitable organizations.
- And I would again like you to strike the accusation of lying. Call me wrong or whatever, that's fine, but I very much believe and stand by what I'm saying, and I did provide evidence of my claims both at the time and just now, as well as several times in the middle. It's not my fault you refuse to accept it. Loki (talk) 18:33, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Your evidence is not evidence of the truth of your statements. If I parrot Trump's lies of voter fraud, providing "evidence" that is not evidence of voting fraud, you would be right to say that I was lying. You are doing the same. You are free to have your opinions. But your desire for something to be true doesn't make it true. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 18:35, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I really don't think this is lying as Loki seems (along with others) to still believe that his evidence sources his claim. I would concur that the accusation of lying nears the border of incivility as it's more not getting the point in good faith. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:14, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Believing in a lie doesn’t make it any less of a lie. I don’t think Loki is necessarily lying in bad faith - but they are lying. I do not believe that calling out a lie as a lie is a personal attack, nor uncivil. If someone was parroting the “big lie” that the 2020 election was stolen, it would not be uncivil to call that out as a lie, regardless of how much the person parroting it believed it. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 20:27, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
lie2
/lī/
noun
noun: lie; plural noun: lies
an intentionally false statement.- If you're saying that I don't believe what I'm saying is false, then I really need to insist you strike your comments because that means even you don't believe I'm lying. Loki (talk) 21:21, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- As has been quoted by Samuelshraga, you do know that what you're claiming is false. You're claiming things that are bluntly, untrue and provably so. And you've been pointed out how they're untrue. So continuing to parrot those things, you are intentionally making false statements. Whether this is "naivety" (i.e. you just refuse to see that you're lying), or whether you're intentionally trying to mislead others, you are lying by continuing to make false statements after they have been shown to be false. This is even worse because your own quotes show that you do not believe that they must only be a hate group. You disagreeing with them doesn't give you the right to label them that just to be able to discount their opinion.To put another way, it is in fact you that's trying to engage in laundering - you're attempting to designate an advocacy group as a "hate group" to state that a reliable source must not "platform them", you're attempting to use how they identify that group as an evidence of unreliability, and you're then taking both of those claims and acting like they are evidence that any information the source has reported is false.The only possible way to assume good faith at this point is to look at you as having such strong feelings on the topic that you can't see how absurd your arguments have been. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- That is a misrepresentation. It's more that there isn't an independent organization in the UK, such as is the case in the US with the Southern Poverty Law Center which tracks hate groups in the US where similar groups (such as Genspect) are tracked as hate groups and labelled as such on the Wikipedia article, which are often cited in the same sentence with Sex Matters, such as on the article on the UK Cass Review. Just as the UK has allowed the LGB Alliance to register as a charity with self designation with lots of opposition from LGBTQ groups in the UK several years ago. Raladic (talk) 21:50, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- People opposing an organization does not make it a hate group. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 22:10, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
As has been quoted by Samuelshraga, you do know that what you're claiming is false.
He knows that Telegraph isn't saying it in their voice and attributing it. He's claiming that 1. the Telegraph is using false characterization to make the attributee an expert 2. that giving such prominence do non-experts should prevent the source from being BREL. He has never said that he doesn't believe any of these points.
Claiming that he's lying is a belief in bad faith. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:27, 11 August 2024 (UTC)- They aren't using a "false" characterization. He thinks that the organization should be labeled a "hate group" because he disagrees with it. Furthermore, bias does not equal unreliability - so even if he disagrees with their attribution that does not make them unreliable. Yet he claims it does, even after people have pointed out repeatedly that even if that is evidence of their bias, it does not equal reliability. So yes, him continuing to claim "they don't label this group a hate group and that makes them unreliable" after being pointed that out repeatedly is at best an intentional refusal to accept that bias is not unreliability and push his belief on Wikipedia as a whole - which amounts to a lie when he knows (or should know) that his claims are false. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 22:30, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- That is a misrepresentation. It's more that there isn't an independent organization in the UK, such as is the case in the US with the Southern Poverty Law Center which tracks hate groups in the US where similar groups (such as Genspect) are tracked as hate groups and labelled as such on the Wikipedia article, which are often cited in the same sentence with Sex Matters, such as on the article on the UK Cass Review. Just as the UK has allowed the LGB Alliance to register as a charity with self designation with lots of opposition from LGBTQ groups in the UK several years ago. Raladic (talk) 21:50, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- As has been quoted by Samuelshraga, you do know that what you're claiming is false. You're claiming things that are bluntly, untrue and provably so. And you've been pointed out how they're untrue. So continuing to parrot those things, you are intentionally making false statements. Whether this is "naivety" (i.e. you just refuse to see that you're lying), or whether you're intentionally trying to mislead others, you are lying by continuing to make false statements after they have been shown to be false. This is even worse because your own quotes show that you do not believe that they must only be a hate group. You disagreeing with them doesn't give you the right to label them that just to be able to discount their opinion.To put another way, it is in fact you that's trying to engage in laundering - you're attempting to designate an advocacy group as a "hate group" to state that a reliable source must not "platform them", you're attempting to use how they identify that group as an evidence of unreliability, and you're then taking both of those claims and acting like they are evidence that any information the source has reported is false.The only possible way to assume good faith at this point is to look at you as having such strong feelings on the topic that you can't see how absurd your arguments have been. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Believing in a lie doesn’t make it any less of a lie. I don’t think Loki is necessarily lying in bad faith - but they are lying. I do not believe that calling out a lie as a lie is a personal attack, nor uncivil. If someone was parroting the “big lie” that the 2020 election was stolen, it would not be uncivil to call that out as a lie, regardless of how much the person parroting it believed it. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 20:27, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I really don't think this is lying as Loki seems (along with others) to still believe that his evidence sources his claim. I would concur that the accusation of lying nears the border of incivility as it's more not getting the point in good faith. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:14, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that this seems like IDHT. I strongly disagree that he is lying.While I agree that this isn't improper attribution, "even if the attributee is improperly cited as an expert, the source is not unreliable" has no grounds in policy.There's is currently a thread at ANI on the conduct row. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Your evidence is not evidence of the truth of your statements. If I parrot Trump's lies of voter fraud, providing "evidence" that is not evidence of voting fraud, you would be right to say that I was lying. You are doing the same. You are free to have your opinions. But your desire for something to be true doesn't make it true. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 18:35, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- The original discussion highlights that there is confusion around the reliability of quotes in reliable sources. While IMO this article correctly highlighted the quotes and claims as from activists who are otherwise unaccredited, the closest thing to a guideline about the case of an uncharacterized quote is WP:INTERVIEW, an essay. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:11, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- If a newsorg regularly got quotes from both sides of an issue, or even portrayed what kind of activism their anti-trans quotes were coming from honestly, I wouldn't have nearly so much of a problem. But the Telegraph does the thing I object to in these articles constantly: pulling a quote from an anti-trans activist group, disguising the true providence of the quote by mischaracterizing the group it comes from, and not including any opinions from anyone who might call them on the deception.
- This definitely makes them responsible for their false characterizations of groups like Sex Matters and Thoughtful Therapists, and I would argue it also demonstrates enough of an intent to launder the quote that it makes them responsible for the factual content of the quote as well, which is almost always BS. Loki (talk) 21:15, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- The characterization isn't false. According to the UK government, they are registered as a charitable/advocacy organization. Your disagreement with their viewpoint doesn't make the characterization of them as such false. You don't get to censor viewpoints you don't like by calling them a "hate group" just because you disagree with their viewpoints. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:26, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Points 2 and 4 are quoting sources. That you don't like the sources, and think the things they said are false, is irrelevant. You claimed the Telegraph was
directly saying false things
. There is no suggestion the quotes are inaccurate. You clearly understand the difference between the Telegraph making a claim in its own voice and quoting someone. - Points 1 and 3 are positive presentations of Sex Matters, a group that you consider a hate group. As you yourself wrote: "Similarly the way they describe Sex Matters as a "woman's rights group" is arguably not false but clearly misleading." So is it
directly saying false things
or, at most, a misleading implication? By your own admission the latter. In reality, it is simply another point of view. In point 1 you reference your claim that James Esses was falsely presented, and yet here youagree that the way they described James Esses is not, technically, false.
- This was all pointed out at the RfC. And many times since. So no, I won't be striking my comment, and your pearl-clutching about accusations of lying are simply laughable. LokiTheLiar indeed. Samuelshraga (talk) 19:06, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- The UK doesn't register hate groups as charitable organizations. Your opinion that their advocacy makes them a "hate group" is not cause to silence their opinions/views. Whether you like it or not, Sex Matters advocates for "clarity" in law that many people think matters.Nobody can force you to change your opinion on things. But Wikipedia does not censor ideas just because you don't like them. And you were unable to provide any actual evidence of your claims - so you were directly (whether intentionally or not) lying. The fact your lies garnered people "supporting" your opinion does not change the fact they are not and were never evidence of unreliability. Having people claim they agree with you does not change the fact your basis is not in line with policy. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 18:21, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstood and then over read him. It is like your somehow not understanding why my comment addresses the so-called litter box unreliable reporting because that part of the close where some think they have a smoking gun against Smarshall. Its just a bad day for the pedia when some go to the mat for such bad sourcing for the encyclopedia Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's not actually any counts that matter. It's the strength of the arguments. And arguments (like yours) that are based on blatant misrepresentation (read: lies) about what the source did/didn't say need to be weighted accordingly (i.e. next to no weight). -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Did the close represent the discussion. I already said, yes. Your counts may be interesting to you but it is your counts that are not relevant. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- A competent close would need to factor in that half were not convinced. The close review is not for you to re-argue the RfC. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Adding to Endorse: I'll have to add to my endorse down here, since the above interventions have brought it to my attention. Many of the overturns appear to basically have a more-or-less warped view of what is a "reliable source". According to good sense, and the RS guideline, context always matters. No matter what the newspaper writes, it is not reliable for medicine, for psychology, for science, for sociology, for philosophy, for history, and the list of disciplines it is not reliable for goes on and on, and indeed covers most of human knowledge. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:22, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- This view is unnecessarily scoped outside of this discussion and directly contradicts consensus that The Telegraph is generally generally reliable. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:58, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- The reliable source guideline is not outside the scope of this discussion, and no this view does not contravene any consensus, indeed it is the consensus. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- As an opener of this discussion, the reliability of The Telegraph outside of the transgender topic is verily out of the scope of this discussion. Ignoring the interpretation of WP:RS with consensus at WP:RSP#The Daily Telegraph only serves to significantly weaken your argument. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:28, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- You point to that out-of-context, further suggesting you confuse generally reliable with reliable about everything, at the top of RSP, it explains, context always matters. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:36, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, that's what you meant. By "list of disciplines it is not reliable for goes on and on" I thought you meant that it should be generally unreliable.However, I see no overturns arguing that the Telegraph should have a status below no consensus or mention such topics exempted under rules similar to MEDRS. The overturn argument is that the close summary was too biased towards unreliability, not the reverse.Also, isn't this a duplicate !vote? Aaron Liu (talk) 20:59, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- No. As I explained. But you an others decided you had to interject, it makes the addition where it is. As for the overturns, they are partly silly, since the interposing of the no consensus is the close. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:12, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I do not understand. Why shouldn't we discuss in a discussion? How does that give you any reason to !vote twice? What's
the interposing of the no consensus
? Aaron Liu (talk) 21:17, 13 August 2024 (UTC)- You are confused. There is no voting twice. The close outcome is what I was referring to. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:22, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- If it's not supposed to be a separate !vote, I'd recommend that you remove the bolded text.Overturning does not necessarily mean we think that the status of the source at RSP should change. In the case of my rationale above, I have explicitly mentioned that I agree with the new status and that I want to overturn because the closure summary is misleading and weaponized to do things the consensus does not support. That is also the most popular view here. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:37, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- And such fears are silly. And no reason to overturn the close, as it is the same outcome either way. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:42, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- If it's not supposed to be a separate !vote, I'd recommend that you remove the bolded text.Overturning does not necessarily mean we think that the status of the source at RSP should change. In the case of my rationale above, I have explicitly mentioned that I agree with the new status and that I want to overturn because the closure summary is misleading and weaponized to do things the consensus does not support. That is also the most popular view here. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:37, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- You are confused. There is no voting twice. The close outcome is what I was referring to. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:22, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I do not understand. Why shouldn't we discuss in a discussion? How does that give you any reason to !vote twice? What's
- No. As I explained. But you an others decided you had to interject, it makes the addition where it is. As for the overturns, they are partly silly, since the interposing of the no consensus is the close. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:12, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, that's what you meant. By "list of disciplines it is not reliable for goes on and on" I thought you meant that it should be generally unreliable.However, I see no overturns arguing that the Telegraph should have a status below no consensus or mention such topics exempted under rules similar to MEDRS. The overturn argument is that the close summary was too biased towards unreliability, not the reverse.Also, isn't this a duplicate !vote? Aaron Liu (talk) 20:59, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- You point to that out-of-context, further suggesting you confuse generally reliable with reliable about everything, at the top of RSP, it explains, context always matters. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:36, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- As an opener of this discussion, the reliability of The Telegraph outside of the transgender topic is verily out of the scope of this discussion. Ignoring the interpretation of WP:RS with consensus at WP:RSP#The Daily Telegraph only serves to significantly weaken your argument. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:28, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- The reliable source guideline is not outside the scope of this discussion, and no this view does not contravene any consensus, indeed it is the consensus. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Seeing closes as only outcomes is absurd. The fear is not silly, as the quote from the closure statement has already been cited to remove the Telegraph from articles (see above). That is also the most popular view here. The end isn't all that's in sight. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:09, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- What's absurd is the desire to drag this out to come to the same place. Nor should anyone care about what is popular. The end is the purpose of being here, at all. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:19, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- You're in a community, so you should definitely take notice to what most of the community thinks, which sets the rules. The closure summary will and has been quoted on RSP. An editor in interest of checking the reliability of this source will and has read the misleading quote of the Telegraph spreading a hoax and acept that as a consensus of the community and proceed to remove the Telegraph from the topic area. To claim taking care of that is absurd, is absurd. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:38, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- RSP summaries are determined by consensus at RSP, and this is an ongoing discussion at the talk page. It's true I did more or less as described, without any real push-back from other editors, but it's also notable that inclusion of the Telegraph RfC is under increased scrutiny at RSP at present. In summary, let's not use my initial edit of RSP as a scapegoat. This is an issue with an initially badly summarised RfC, not necessarily with the RfC itself. Thanks. CNC (talk) 00:51, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see how that discussion discusses the misleading closure statement. If the closing summary is not overturned, then inclusion of material from it perfectly plausible as the agreed-upon consensus. I also agree that the RfC itself doesn't have any issues and we're here right now to try and amend the summary. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:09, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- No. The popularity is still not something to care about. And the close is not holy writ. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:20, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- You are the only one who believes that the closing summary does not change anything (in your words, not being holy writ). This seems like a User:Guy Macon/One against many situation. The summary statement aside from the new status is still part of the summary, and summary statements are grounds for challenging a close per WP:CHALLENGECLOSE. Your arguments have no basis in any projectspace documents. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:11, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've been trying to avoid engaging here but seeing you talk past each other is quite frustrating so let me try to reach some clarity:
- @Alanscottwalker, do you think that a no consensus close will not alter the status quo for the Telegraph regarding trans issues? Are you perhaps under the misconception that trans issues are 100% medical issues and that because of this the Telegraph wasn't reliable for trans issues anyway? Because if so, that's not true.
- Alternatively, are you under the related misconception that because the Telegraph was generally reliable, a finding of general reliability and a finding of no consensus mean the same thing? Again, because of the special way "no consensus" works at RSP, also not true.
- Regardless of what it is you mean, I feel like speaking only in cryptic one-liners is not doing you any favors here. Please say at least once as clearly as possible why you are endorsing the close. Loki (talk) 05:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I already endorsed the close and I already said why in two paragraphs, and my second paragraph was not limited to only medical. And contra your advice, my advice to you and others is don't continue to drag this process out, saying it once, and with brevity, is enough. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:48, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- The reason I am asking you to be clearer is that a closer gets to evaluate the arguments and not just count votes. Your current argument is cryptic enough that the two other people who have responded to you don't know what you're talking about, which bodes poorly for how a closer will evaluate it. Loki (talk) 15:55, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have more faith in that the closer knows what they are doing, the BLP and CONTEXT values should be well known to them. Alanscottwalker (talk) Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:26, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- The reason I am asking you to be clearer is that a closer gets to evaluate the arguments and not just count votes. Your current argument is cryptic enough that the two other people who have responded to you don't know what you're talking about, which bodes poorly for how a closer will evaluate it. Loki (talk) 15:55, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I already endorsed the close and I already said why in two paragraphs, and my second paragraph was not limited to only medical. And contra your advice, my advice to you and others is don't continue to drag this process out, saying it once, and with brevity, is enough. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:48, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- You are the only one who believes that the closing summary does not change anything (in your words, not being holy writ). This seems like a User:Guy Macon/One against many situation. The summary statement aside from the new status is still part of the summary, and summary statements are grounds for challenging a close per WP:CHALLENGECLOSE. Your arguments have no basis in any projectspace documents. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:11, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- RSP summaries are determined by consensus at RSP, and this is an ongoing discussion at the talk page. It's true I did more or less as described, without any real push-back from other editors, but it's also notable that inclusion of the Telegraph RfC is under increased scrutiny at RSP at present. In summary, let's not use my initial edit of RSP as a scapegoat. This is an issue with an initially badly summarised RfC, not necessarily with the RfC itself. Thanks. CNC (talk) 00:51, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- You're in a community, so you should definitely take notice to what most of the community thinks, which sets the rules. The closure summary will and has been quoted on RSP. An editor in interest of checking the reliability of this source will and has read the misleading quote of the Telegraph spreading a hoax and acept that as a consensus of the community and proceed to remove the Telegraph from the topic area. To claim taking care of that is absurd, is absurd. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:38, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- What's absurd is the desire to drag this out to come to the same place. Nor should anyone care about what is popular. The end is the purpose of being here, at all. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:19, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- This view is unnecessarily scoped outside of this discussion and directly contradicts consensus that The Telegraph is generally generally reliable. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:58, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Discussion (Telegraph)
- @Aaron Liu: If you are only concerned with amending that sentence, do you mind withdrawing this request so that those of us are who are concerned with the close more broadly can submit? The issue is that it makes it difficult to focus on the broader issues if you start the discussion with a narrow scope, while the opposite is less true. BilledMammal (talk) 05:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- If we really need multiple requests, then maybe those could be in parallel? I feel like we could do all of them here and hopefully find "express" consensus for that sentence while the rest of the discussion continues.Unfortunately I'm ill-equipped to discuss this out right now as I have to go to sleep, sorry. I sure have planned my day well. Aaron Liu (talk) 05:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've attempted to make it parallel as you propose; if you feel that isn't an appropriate way to handle it, please move my comment. I've also renamed the sections "participant", "non-participant", and "closer". BilledMammal (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 05:57, 09 July 2024 (UTC)
- The original sections were how {{RfC closure review}} prefilled it. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've attempted to make it parallel as you propose; if you feel that isn't an appropriate way to handle it, please move my comment. I've also renamed the sections "participant", "non-participant", and "closer". BilledMammal (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 05:57, 09 July 2024 (UTC)
- A close review can and should result in discussion of all the issues present, as I've done in my comment above. Ultimately, the one issue Aaron Liu identified should be grounds enough to overturn this close, as it amounts to a supervote, but I doubt this is going to be closed quickly and you (BilledMammall) should feel free to identify your issues in your !vote for people to consider. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 05:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- If we really need multiple requests, then maybe those could be in parallel? I feel like we could do all of them here and hopefully find "express" consensus for that sentence while the rest of the discussion continues.Unfortunately I'm ill-equipped to discuss this out right now as I have to go to sleep, sorry. I sure have planned my day well. Aaron Liu (talk) 05:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Aaron Liu: you wrote a couple of times in your reasoning that you want amendment to the first paragraph with reference to the litterbox claim. Just wanted to nitpick that it actually appears in the third paragraph, if you want to edit for us pernickety types. Samuelshraga (talk) 06:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- By first paragraph, I meant the first paragraph of my statement. It seems that this has been... misrepresented! I'll fix that soon. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal: You commented 44 times in the original RfC; now you've opened this close review and you are already badgering people here, seven replies in a few hours. It's wearysome. Black Kite (talk) 11:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I didn’t open this, and I’ve commented less than other editors involved here - I don’t think my participation has been unreasonable, although if you disagree I encourage you to raise the issue on my talk page as this is the wrong location for that discussion and I won’t reply further on that topic here. BilledMammal (talk) 12:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- The threading makes it look as though yourself and AaronLiu opened the close review together. If that's not the case, then perhaps your long section should be under a separate Level 3 subheading. Black Kite (talk) 12:44, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- To simplify the maybe-confusing structure of this, I think claiming that we both opened it would be for the best, as with retaining the current formatting of rationales. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:47, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- The threading makes it look as though yourself and AaronLiu opened the close review together. If that's not the case, then perhaps your long section should be under a separate Level 3 subheading. Black Kite (talk) 12:44, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I didn’t open this, and I’ve commented less than other editors involved here - I don’t think my participation has been unreasonable, although if you disagree I encourage you to raise the issue on my talk page as this is the wrong location for that discussion and I won’t reply further on that topic here. BilledMammal (talk) 12:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment As a close review I think we need to focus on the mechanics of the close. An editor who endorses or rejects the close because they agree with the outcome doesn't add weight to the discussion. Specific concerns were raised with the closing. Endorse responses that address the concerns with reason should be given weight in these discussions. Responses that simply endorse (or reject) the outcome without addressing the concerns raised should be discounted. This is like a legal appeal where we aren't arguing the case, rather we are arguing that the process was or wasn't followed (with supporting evidence). I feel this is a standard that should apply to all close reviews which often seem to devolve into a second round of litigating the original question. Springee (talk) 12:27, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Just a comment for non-British editors who might not know: The Daily Telegraph is one of the most prominent newspapers in a country where a large proportion of the population still read newspapers. I think you'd struggle to find an adult British person who doesn't have some sort of opinion on it, even if it's just "as absorbent as the rest of them, in a pinch." If the contention is that nobody with an opinion on the Torygraph (damn, there's me out) should have closed this discussion, you're likely disqualifying all British editors. Kind of like saying that an RfC on Fox News couldn't be closed by an American. Which may be fine, I just thought I'd mention it. – Joe (talk) 14:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- As a Brit, I can confirm this sentiment. This is also true of The Guardian, The Independent and The Times. We have a small selection of notable left-leaning and right-leaning broadsheets, and most Britons have an opinion on them. This is potentially similar to WaPo and NYT that are widely known, as I assume most Americans have an opinion on these either way as well. CNC (talk) 14:15, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I assume that most Americans have never heard of, or would not recognize, the majority of British newspapers. I would even wager that more would confuse The Times with The New York Times than would know what The Daily Telegraph is. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 14:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Precisely. The point was that S Marshall is from the UK (maybe that wasn't obvious), so naturally they would have some sort of opinion on The Telegraph without necessarily being bias. The "as well" was in reference to the overall comparison, not Americans knowing British newspapers. There's a rationale for having non-British editors close this one. CNC (talk) 14:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think that (non-)Britishness is required here; it isn't reasonable for us to ask people to not close something on the basis of nationality. Instead, As WP:INVOLVED reminds us, people are at times
incapable of making objective decisions in disputes to which they have been a party or about which they have strong feelings
. When one is able to put their feelings aside and objectively read a discussion, this is less of a problem, but having strong opinions to such an extent that one's ability to faithfully summarize a discussion become colo(u)red by them is incompatible with our expectations for a closer. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 14:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- But nobody has demonstrated that Smarshall does have such strong opinions. Thryduulf (talk) 14:35, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've admitted in this discussion to having strong opinions about some of the Daily Telegraph's political columnists. Fact is, the Telegraph gives platforms to people who want to privatize the NHS and bring back the death penalty, and I find that abhorrent. I don't (and still don't) have a personal opinion about the Telegraph's view on transgender people, and I deny that gender and politics are the same thing.—S Marshall T/C 15:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think that (non-)Britishness is required here; it isn't reasonable for us to ask people to not close something on the basis of nationality. Instead, As WP:INVOLVED reminds us, people are at times
- Precisely. The point was that S Marshall is from the UK (maybe that wasn't obvious), so naturally they would have some sort of opinion on The Telegraph without necessarily being bias. The "as well" was in reference to the overall comparison, not Americans knowing British newspapers. There's a rationale for having non-British editors close this one. CNC (talk) 14:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I assume that most Americans have never heard of, or would not recognize, the majority of British newspapers. I would even wager that more would confuse The Times with The New York Times than would know what The Daily Telegraph is. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 14:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- As a Brit, I can confirm this sentiment. This is also true of The Guardian, The Independent and The Times. We have a small selection of notable left-leaning and right-leaning broadsheets, and most Britons have an opinion on them. This is potentially similar to WaPo and NYT that are widely known, as I assume most Americans have an opinion on these either way as well. CNC (talk) 14:15, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Just thought I'd point out that the (now-reverted) new entry on RSP has already been used to justify content removal with unwarranted stridency: [3]. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 15:14, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I mean, yes? WP:MREL is not WP:GREL. Almost everyone in the RFC including the vast majority of Option 1 voters agreed that the Telegraph is biased, which would mean that citing them without attribution is inappropriate. So I don't know what your point is here. Loki (talk) 16:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- There was WP:INTEXT:
"The organisation has said"
. Based on attribution, it's not necessary to state the source if you are stating the author(s) of the claim. Overall, kind of a moot point when it's not due in the lead anyway. CNC (talk) 16:48, 9 July 2024 (UTC) - I agree the text was undue, and I have removed it. The point of mentioning it here was that the wording of the RSP entry was being used to support strident assertions about reliability that were in no way reflective of the much more circumspect discussion. If that's what people take away from all this, the process has failed. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 17:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- While I see your point, the misinterpretation of source reliability listed at RSP isn't exclusive to that entry (as you may well agree). The RfC itself was also used a source, which is merely what the RSP entry was summarising. It's fair to say that misinterpretation of MREL sources is widespread, and this example just provides more weight to that argument. CNC (talk) 17:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think what's notable is that it took a mere 2 hours from the update to Perennial Sources to an edit war breaking out, and this does not lend to an interpretation of "no consensus" that favoured stability. Void if removed (talk) 18:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree to a degree, but also don't think any GREL to MREL change ever intends to favour stability, or necessarily makes things unstable. Personally I think we should favour reliability of sources over stability, meaning context-based rationales in this case. I don't believe editors misinterpretation of MREL is a good reason to change the status quo though; the cause of the problem is a lack of understanding, the edit warring is just a symptom of that. CNC (talk) 18:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- The issue is how RSP works; its very subjective how we assess sources, and that means that the interpretation of our assessments is also very subjective. I think we should rework the process, but that's a different discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 18:46, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Given that the party employing that rationale was WP:INVOLVED in this RFC and voted 3/WP:GUNREL, I wonder: if you don't understand what it is you're voting for, is the vote valid? Void if removed (talk) 18:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree to a degree, but also don't think any GREL to MREL change ever intends to favour stability, or necessarily makes things unstable. Personally I think we should favour reliability of sources over stability, meaning context-based rationales in this case. I don't believe editors misinterpretation of MREL is a good reason to change the status quo though; the cause of the problem is a lack of understanding, the edit warring is just a symptom of that. CNC (talk) 18:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think what's notable is that it took a mere 2 hours from the update to Perennial Sources to an edit war breaking out, and this does not lend to an interpretation of "no consensus" that favoured stability. Void if removed (talk) 18:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- While I see your point, the misinterpretation of source reliability listed at RSP isn't exclusive to that entry (as you may well agree). The RfC itself was also used a source, which is merely what the RSP entry was summarising. It's fair to say that misinterpretation of MREL sources is widespread, and this example just provides more weight to that argument. CNC (talk) 17:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yellow doesn't mean attribution is required nor does it mean Green source beats Yellow source. Instead it means we need to use caution when deciding if the material is being given undue weight by the source in question (which can effect how much weight it should be given on Wikipedia). It also means we shouldn't take interpretations as always correct. However, it doesn't mean we should question basic facts taken from the source. If they say 500 people attended or the topics were X, we should assume they are correct. This by the way is a general issue issue with RSP's buckets, not specific to this topic. Springee (talk) 17:15, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- WP:MREL is questionable as it stands because it is unable to distinguish "no consensus on whether a source should be used" from "consensus that it's unclear when a source is used". Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 00:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- What is the practical difference between them? Thryduulf (talk) 00:49, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Thryduulf: None, right now. That's the problem, since WP:MREL is seen as "unreliable with exceptions" in practice. Editors !voting "Option 2" can win by default simply by preventing a consensus from emerging. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 02:53, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, why would that be harmful? If numbers are filtered and weighed into a close, I don't see what's wrong with that. Aaron Liu (talk) 04:20, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- If there is no consensus, why is it harmful for RSP to state that there is no consensus? If there is no difference in practice between between "no consensus for general reliability or general unreliability therefore it's medium reliability" and "consensus that it's medium reliability", why is not distinguishing between the two harmful? Thryduulf (talk) 09:26, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Thryduulf: None, right now. That's the problem, since WP:MREL is seen as "unreliable with exceptions" in practice. Editors !voting "Option 2" can win by default simply by preventing a consensus from emerging. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 02:53, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- What is the practical difference between them? Thryduulf (talk) 00:49, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- There was WP:INTEXT:
- I mean, yes? WP:MREL is not WP:GREL. Almost everyone in the RFC including the vast majority of Option 1 voters agreed that the Telegraph is biased, which would mean that citing them without attribution is inappropriate. So I don't know what your point is here. Loki (talk) 16:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Are RfC participants supposed to reply in the Non-participants section, or should they keep comments in their own section and/or §Discussion? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:51, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I’ve never seen a close appeal where it doesn’t happen, so I assume they are allowed to. BilledMammal (talk) 16:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- In fact, I haven't seen any close review with the headings format of the {{RfC closure review}} template, lol. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I have no objection to participants replying in the non-participants section. I think the goal of the headings is to group the top level comments together, which is accomplished even if those top level comments are getting replied to. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I’ve never seen a close appeal where it doesn’t happen, so I assume they are allowed to. BilledMammal (talk) 16:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- As expected, people are already using this outcome to try to shift the balance of articles, and are also angling to go down the slippery slope and get other UK news media also declared unreliable on this issue, so that ultimately only one side of this active political debate can be covered as mainstream and non-fringe. *Dan T.* (talk) 18:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's completely irrelevant to the close. Thryduulf (talk) 18:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not entirely. That this was the motivation of certain editors on the RfC and the expected result of a non-WP:GREL close was brought up in the discussion. The fact that the closer ignored this in their close (and that it immediately turned out to be spot on) is yet another demonstration that the closer didn't do a very good job of weighing arguments. If they did, they certainly didn't show their working. Samuelshraga (talk) 19:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's completely irrelevant to the close. Thryduulf (talk) 18:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Editors are putting a lot of thought into closer's arguments about whether a "No consensus" finding on the RfC moves the Telegraph into WP:MREL or preserves the status quo. I think this discussion is premature, given that the closer has given next to no justification for a "No consensus" close - they explicitly disavow that it depends on the (misrepresented) summary of the litterbox hoax discussion in the close, and in their expanded close their only argument is a count of votes (which they also explicitly disavow on their talk).
- First we can determine whether we have a valid close - and if not we vacate and somebody else can close by weighing the arguments. Maybe they too will conclude "No consensus". Then the discussion of what exactly that means will be ripe. Samuelshraga (talk) 18:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- There is no discussion needed about what a no-consensus close means - it's explicitly defined at WP:RSP (that wouldn't make sense if the lack of consensus was only between options 3 and 4, but that's unarguably not relevant to this discussion). Thryduulf (talk) 19:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Wonderful. I very clearly said that I don't think we should have that discussion now, and the first issue at hand is whether the close itself, meaning the judgement of "No consensus" and the reasoning given (or not given) for it should stand. Afterwards we can discuss, or not discuss, whether further discussions are or aren't needed on any topic that becomes germane. Samuelshraga (talk) 19:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've requested clarity below due to the popular argument of "no consensus = no change". It seems pretty clear that this is a discussion that needs to take place, based on support for this proposal. CNC (talk) 19:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- @CommunityNotesContributor I understand that. However I think that relevant points unrelated to the "no consensus = no change" debate have been raised, and call into question the validity of the "no consensus" finding itself. This seems to me to be a logically prior discussion that could potentially make the "no consensus = no change" discussion moot. Samuelshraga (talk) 19:14, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Granted, and if anything it's intended to draw these arguments out of this discussion and instead clarified below. Even with the RfC overturned, in the meantime, there is a valid discussion of whether this RfC should be exempt from the RSP status quo, or whether there needs to be a more thorough discussion on reviewing how RSP lists sources. Given this discussion has already surfaced, I see no reason why it wouldn't surface again regarding another NC close. CNC (talk) 19:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- True. I just don't want the discussion about this close - especially the arguments about it's basic failure to in any way weigh the arguments from the discussion - to get lost in the procedural discussion in what to do if the NC close is upheld. Of course that's more complicated because some people have now supported Overturn referencing closer's positions on what the outcome of NC is... and anyway now we're in a discussion about discussions about discussions.
- Hopefully people coming to this review will still put appropriate weight on those who point out that the close is a supervote, that it doesn't weigh arguments, that it counts votes, and other failings, notwithstanding that more and more of the discussion is about the "NC = change or no change" issue. Samuelshraga (talk) 19:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Granted, and if anything it's intended to draw these arguments out of this discussion and instead clarified below. Even with the RfC overturned, in the meantime, there is a valid discussion of whether this RfC should be exempt from the RSP status quo, or whether there needs to be a more thorough discussion on reviewing how RSP lists sources. Given this discussion has already surfaced, I see no reason why it wouldn't surface again regarding another NC close. CNC (talk) 19:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- @CommunityNotesContributor I understand that. However I think that relevant points unrelated to the "no consensus = no change" debate have been raised, and call into question the validity of the "no consensus" finding itself. This seems to me to be a logically prior discussion that could potentially make the "no consensus = no change" discussion moot. Samuelshraga (talk) 19:14, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've requested clarity below due to the popular argument of "no consensus = no change". It seems pretty clear that this is a discussion that needs to take place, based on support for this proposal. CNC (talk) 19:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Wonderful. I very clearly said that I don't think we should have that discussion now, and the first issue at hand is whether the close itself, meaning the judgement of "No consensus" and the reasoning given (or not given) for it should stand. Afterwards we can discuss, or not discuss, whether further discussions are or aren't needed on any topic that becomes germane. Samuelshraga (talk) 19:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- There is no discussion needed about what a no-consensus close means - it's explicitly defined at WP:RSP (that wouldn't make sense if the lack of consensus was only between options 3 and 4, but that's unarguably not relevant to this discussion). Thryduulf (talk) 19:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
A lot of the comments here seem to be implying that partially overturning by amending language isn’t an option? Can we at least obtain consensus that the language I mention should be amended? Aaron Liu (talk) 21:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't object to removing the language you want amended. I just think this is very secondary to the much more serious problem. There is no argument here that the close weighed the sides of the discussion in any way. Some people endorsing the close have asserted that it was reasoned, but they haven't elaborated on its reasons. Samuelshraga (talk) 05:19, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I was talking about many of the endorse !votes. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Personally, I think at minimum the removal of "and gender critical views" from the note, else what's the point in having a per topic discussion if a closer can unilaterally widen it?
- For example, this is a story in The Telegraph about a social worker who won an employment tribunal on the grounds of her gender-critical views. There seems to be no exaggeration or inaccuracy. It also does not mention the word "trans" at all. It is entirely a story about the legal protection of those views, and the discriminatory acts of the council and regulatory body. It is a notable legal case (ie, the first time a regulatory body has been found to have committed unlawful discrimination) and as such not given undue prominence.
- As written, this would come under the purview of this note, because the note has been expanded beyond anything discussed in the RFC. Why? Void if removed (talk) 08:29, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Without commenting on whether is should come under the close, a single accurate story (assuming it is, I haven't looked) is not at all incompatible with a finding of MREL or even GUNREL. Neither category is saying that all stories (in the relevant topic area) are inaccurate, heck even the Daily Mail gets things right at times. At the most basic level GUNREL means they are generally unreliable, MREL means they are sometimes unreliable - often enough that they are not generally reliable but not often enough that they are generally unreliable. In the same way generally reliable doesn't mean infallible. Thryduulf (talk) 08:48, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- The point is that this is a story that is not a "trans issue", it is a "gender critical views" issue. The RFC was "unreliable on trans issues". If people wanted this to be part of the RFC, it should have been part of the RFC. Adding it in in the close without it being raised in the RFC and with no discussion is a WP:SUPERVOTE. Void if removed (talk) 09:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- That is nonsense, Gender critical, or its original non-whitewashed term TERF, which even has it in the name, is a trans issue and whether specifically called out or not, it's implicitly covered under the topic.
- There is no change in scope, so the accusation of a supervote for this is arbitrary, but simply WP:COMPETENCY is assumed on an obviously linked subtopic that the closer simply chose to call out. Raladic (talk) 15:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- And all of that is of course extensively disputed (including the crack about "whitewashed") and none of this was discussed in the RFC, and your framing of the issues in this particular POV exemplifies the problem with closing in this way. ("
call out
"? is that the role of closer?). - To make this clear, consider a hypothetical RFC brought claiming that "Pink News is unreliable on gender-critical views", which plays out as a mirror opposite of the Telegraph one.
- Ie, where the Telegraph is claimed to present trans issues in a biased and misleading way, and overly focuses on trans people in a negative light, inflating non-stories into breathless ragebait, the inverse claim is made that Pink News behaves the same about people with "gender critical views". Lets say that the arguments all play out exactly the same, in the same proportions and a closer decides it is a no-consensus result.
- Do you think it would be defensible to say that the reliability of Pink News was therefore disputed on "gender-critical views and trans issues"?
- These are distinct subjects with some overlap, and with a huge amount of conflict where they meet and even what terms mean, but here the POV of the closer has widened the scope of the close beyond the question that was asked. Void if removed (talk) 15:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Just simply no, it is consensus on Wikipedia (and as such the wider world, since we simply summarize the RS) that Gender critical views are a subtopic of transgender issues, as is very clear from the lead of Gender critical, so there is simply no leap here.
- There is also no crack about whitewashing, again, we discuss this in Gender-critical feminism#Terminology, so I simply re-stated the consensus on Wikipedia on the issue.
- Picking on words that were included in the close doesn't change the fact. Raladic (talk) 16:00, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- But WP:NOTSOURCE so, no. And given these are exactly the arguments the closer has presumed the conclusion to, based on no evidence, and the many, many protracted discussions on talk there, it would be much simpler not to have needlessly expanded the close to include this completely undiscussed POV, for no good reason. Void if removed (talk) 16:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hopefully this discussion isn't stale, but recent coverage of Imane Khelif's Olympic victory made me realise that the Telegraph's reliability for reporting on the like of JK Rowling's attacks on Khelif would be considered MREL under the close, even though I don't think anyone involved would consider it a trans topic. It is not impossible that this will be a relevant question for editors in the immediate future. Samuelshraga (talk) 21:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- But WP:NOTSOURCE so, no. And given these are exactly the arguments the closer has presumed the conclusion to, based on no evidence, and the many, many protracted discussions on talk there, it would be much simpler not to have needlessly expanded the close to include this completely undiscussed POV, for no good reason. Void if removed (talk) 16:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- And all of that is of course extensively disputed (including the crack about "whitewashed") and none of this was discussed in the RFC, and your framing of the issues in this particular POV exemplifies the problem with closing in this way. ("
- The point is that this is a story that is not a "trans issue", it is a "gender critical views" issue. The RFC was "unreliable on trans issues". If people wanted this to be part of the RFC, it should have been part of the RFC. Adding it in in the close without it being raised in the RFC and with no discussion is a WP:SUPERVOTE. Void if removed (talk) 09:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I believe that this is much less damaging than "unashamed embrace of the widely-debunked Litter boxes in schools hoax". Aaron Liu (talk) 15:34, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Without commenting on whether is should come under the close, a single accurate story (assuming it is, I haven't looked) is not at all incompatible with a finding of MREL or even GUNREL. Neither category is saying that all stories (in the relevant topic area) are inaccurate, heck even the Daily Mail gets things right at times. At the most basic level GUNREL means they are generally unreliable, MREL means they are sometimes unreliable - often enough that they are not generally reliable but not often enough that they are generally unreliable. In the same way generally reliable doesn't mean infallible. Thryduulf (talk) 08:48, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Request for clarity
Part 1
To those of you who say "Overturn" -- overturn to what? Please be clearer. It would help if you distinguished between:
- Overturn to a consensus. Please specify what consensus you see.
- Overturn to no consensus, defaulting to no change. This means you feel that WP:RSP should still say "generally reliable".
- Overturn to no consensus, defaulting to a change, but not the change that I specified in my close.
- Overturn to no consensus, defaulting to the change that I specified in my close, but change the summary of the discussion.
- Overturn by reverting the close, leaving someone else to close with no guidance from the community on how.
Thank you.—S Marshall T/C 15:17, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I haven't read enough of the relevant policies to have an opinion on the Wikipedia:ONUS questions behind option 2-3. My sympathy is to 1, as I think the Wikipedia:GREL choice got the better side of the argument once @Chess stepped in, and I saw many other editors thought the same, but I'm not nearly experienced enough in these to attempt to judge a consensus myself. So by default I will go to Option 5, because as I have argued here - the only reason you gave (and you only gave it in your expanded close) for giving weight to the view that the Telegraph was unreliable was
this view is strongly disputed by significant numbers
, but you told me on your talk page thatthe point is not to count votes, and I didn't, but to weigh arguments, which I did
. There is no evidence of argument-weighing, and the close was not remotely a reasonable reading of the discussion, so the policy questions relied on to implement its outcome don't need to be addressed in my opinion. Samuelshraga (talk) 15:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC) - Overturn to allow someone who intends to actually address the problems with your close to re-close the discussion with the consensus (or lack thereof) they find after doing so. If a closer actually weights arguments appropriately and explains how their close takes into account that, aside from the “it’s biased” and “I don’t like it” !voters, the majority was solidly swayed by the refutations of the initial discussion, then that close will be sufficient. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 15:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
aside from the “it’s biased” and “I don’t like it” !voters, the majority was solidly swayed by the refutations of the initial discussion
I think you must be reading a different discussion to me. Many people were swayed, to a greater or lesser extent, by some or all of the refutations. Many people were not. Even if you discount all of the "it's biased" comments (many of which were actually more complex than that and accompanied !votes of all options) calling that "a majority was solidly swayed" is a misleading oversimplification. Thryduulf (talk) 16:12, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- When the refutations were based on the actual text, and nobody was able to actually present cognizant and clear refutation of the refutation, it does matter. Anyone !voting based on “I disagree with the refutation, even though it’s English language facts and provides the exact text of the article to support it, but I can’t say why I disagree” should have that opinion decreased in weight accordingly. Otherwise, those commenting early in a discussion have absolutely no reason to continue in the discussion to form a consensus - since their opinion, no matter how badly it’s proven wrong, will still count just as much.
- If someone is proven to have based their opinion on inaccurate/misleading information, as many people commenting both before and after the refutation did, and they refuse to clarify/update to explain their opinion in light of new information, their opinion must be weighted accordingly. And that is what happened here, with people - including the closer himself - subscribing to an outright falsehood that the Telegraph said something that they didn’t, and nobody could ever provide proof that they did. If people are allowed to “win” discussions by blatantly lying and not providing proof just because enough people agree with that lie in furtherance of their political goals, then this is no longer an encyclopedia, but a propaganda machine.
- The new close needs to take into account the fact that many (to use your preferred word) !votes for unreliability were based on falsehoods, that many more were based on not liking it, and that many more were based solely on bias in combination with these other things. And this goes for both sides - but the unreliable camp had significantly more !votes that were inaccurate at best. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 19:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 2, as I stated above. You closed as no consensus but then inserted your own opinion on what should happen instead of just leaving the status quo in place. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 16:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Your opinion regarding Option 2 is appreciated below in Part 2. CNC (talk) 19:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 5, since I thought the close rationale was flawed. starship.paint (RUN) 16:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- If the close is reverted, then it should be reclosed by someone else based on their reading of the arguments presented in the discussion, taking into account any relevant comments here. So sort of option 5 but not exactly. Thryduulf (talk) 16:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 5. – Teratix ₵ 16:33, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Option 3/4 The result of no consensus can't be ignored by RSP as the status quo of RSP is to categorise sources (or topics by sources) with the relevant consensus established or lack of. The Telegraph can't be used as an example of "there was no consensus so there is no change", as this would have broader implications on other sources listed at RSP; Fox News and HuffPost (politics) come to mind as examples of GREL turned NC, but I imagine there are many others that were GREL by default prior to NC. It's unclear whether editors believe we should be making an exception for The Telegraph, or whether the proposal is to re-format how RSP categorises source discussions. If it's the latter, this requires a broader RfC on how RSP categorises sources and has little to do with this RfC. CNC (talk) 16:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- Given that this section was opened as a way of disambiguating the intentions of people who support Overturn, I think it's a little unhelpful to have people who endorse the close choosing options as well (not that I think your arguments are unwelcome at all - I already said that I don't as yet feel confident or experienced to get involved on this issue and what you write seems cogent, even if it prejudges the idea that "No consensus" close will be retained). Samuelshraga (talk) 19:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's a very good point and had overlooked that, apologies. I've struck my comment and encourage anyone to collapse this discussion. CNC (talk) 19:13, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Given that this section was opened as a way of disambiguating the intentions of people who support Overturn, I think it's a little unhelpful to have people who endorse the close choosing options as well (not that I think your arguments are unwelcome at all - I already said that I don't as yet feel confident or experienced to get involved on this issue and what you write seems cogent, even if it prejudges the idea that "No consensus" close will be retained). Samuelshraga (talk) 19:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
I'm neutral to Option 4 and would oppose everything else. I think the conclusion was the only reasonable reading of the discussion, and closing to any consensus (including, by the way RSP works, WP:GREL) would be inappropriate. I'm not particularly attached to the summary though, and honestly do think that the exact phrasing was stronger than was reflected in the discussion. Loki (talk) 16:35, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- @LokiTheLiar, this section was to disambiguate the intentions of people who support Overturn, it could be a bit misleading to include the opinions of people who endorse the close. Samuelshraga (talk) 19:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 5. Springee (talk) 17:11, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 2. The default in a case of no-consensus is to maintain the previous status quo. *Dan T.* (talk) 17:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's not, see comment above re status quo of RfC closures regarding source reliability. Are you suggesting that it should be, and should it be enacted retrospectively as well? This isn't the right venue for that proposal, but I'd appreciate clarity from the "no consensus means no change" crowd as to what they are proposing, so we can draft up an RfC for it and move forward. CNC (talk) 18:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- For WP:RSP that is not true. Look at the page; it has an entire category for sources on which there is no consensus, and sources are described as lacking consensus repeatedly throughout the table. Its purpose is to document the current consensus of the community (or lack thereof); it doesn't have the same need for stability or the need to reach a hard decision on some version that applies to article-space. We can't realistically leave an article in no-consensus state, but for RSP we can and frequently do. --Aquillion (talk) 19:33, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 2 CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 23:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Since my preferred option isn't there, my ideal would be overturning the close for a re-evaluation, with no assumption that anyone who didn't assert that the specific examples of alleged reliability presented was conceding the unreliability of those specific examples. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 23:12, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think that's 5? Samuelshraga (talk) 11:11, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't think so since I'm not suggesting no guidance, but no guidance with the direction of making sure not to make what I personally feel was a particular previous error in determining consensus. I think a closer needs to approach the arguments about reliability more than the feelings about reliability, which I believe (again, my personal opinion) is more in line with establishing consensus and decreasing the chances that this becomes a whole new dreary casus belli in what is already a controversial area. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 00:41, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think that's 5? Samuelshraga (talk) 11:11, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Since my preferred option isn't there, my ideal would be overturning the close for a re-evaluation, with no assumption that anyone who didn't assert that the specific examples of alleged reliability presented was conceding the unreliability of those specific examples. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 23:12, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 5. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 00:32, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 4 as per my statement above. I think you got the result right, but the reasoning (especially introducing ONUS) is wrong. Also to note I reject the premise behind Option 2. The RSP (and so RSN) does have a way of indicating that editors don't agree on the reliability of a source (MREL), so I also don't agree with editors that no consensus means no change. The RSP is not article content, and this wasn't an RFC on how to update the RSP. The RFC was on the reliability of the source, on which there isn't agreement. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:11, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 5 Sweet6970 (talk) 12:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, okay then. I see nothing that tempts me to revert myself, so when, after the requisite amount of wrangling, someone else comes along and closes this, their entire menu of options seems to be either (1) no consensus to overturn or (2) consensus to overturn but no consensus what to overturn to, in which case the next closer has a great big problem. If you want, you can make this less of a headache for that hypothetical person by supplying with reasoned arguments for what the close should have been. It would help even more if you could take the trouble to ensure that these arguments are compatible with the rather idiosyncratic way that WP:RSP works.—S Marshall T/C 16:08, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- The closer requirements involve being compatible with policies and guidelines. WP:RSP is neither so no arguer or new closer would have any obligation to be compatible with its idiosyncracies. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 16:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you. I'm certainly refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view.—S Marshall T/C 17:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- What polices and guidelines is RSP not compatible with? Thryduulf (talk) 17:58, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Irrelevant. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 22:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you would like to overturn a ton of our existing consensus and system, you may open that as a separate proposal. For now, let's please operate within the status quo. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:40, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps I've caused a misunderstanding, see reply to Thryduulf below. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 23:08, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- You explicitly claim that RSP is not compatible with policies and guidelines. It is not irrelevant to ask you to substantiate that claim by listing which policies and guidelines it is not compatible with (and ideally explaining why). Thryduulf (talk) 22:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think I belatedly see where you got that idea and it's my fault. After the sentence "The closer requirements involve being compatible with policies and guidelines." I said "WP:RSP is neither ..." i.e. "WP:RSP is neither a policy nor a guideline ...". You seem to have taken it as "WP:RSP is neither compatible with policies nor with guidelines ..." So I should have written more carefully. Anyway, it's true that WP:RSP is neither a policy nor a guideline and your question doesn't relate to that. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 23:08, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- You're welcome to explain how you think RSP should be changed in discussion below. CNC (talk) 22:46, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps I've caused a misunderstanding, see reply to Thryduulf above. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 23:08, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you would like to overturn a ton of our existing consensus and system, you may open that as a separate proposal. For now, let's please operate within the status quo. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:40, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Irrelevant. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 22:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Policies and guidelines aren't the only kind of consensus out there. RSP's consensus is not overridden by any broader consensus, thus it stands. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:30, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure what that's arguing for, it remains true that no arguer or new closer would have any obligation to be compatible with its idiosyncracies. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 00:44, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- The word you're looking for with "idiosyncrasies" is "consensus". Aaron Liu (talk) 04:53, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure what that's arguing for, it remains true that no arguer or new closer would have any obligation to be compatible with its idiosyncracies. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 00:44, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- The next closer does not have a great big problem, because presumably they will actually evaluate and weight the discussion appropriately, rather than taking the initial commenter’s claims at face value, ignoring the amount of support for the refutation of those claims, and in fact repeating those inaccurate claims as part of the close.
- I respect you a lot S_Marshall, I really do, and your closes tend to be quite well crafted and explain your decision making very well. This one missed the mark woefully, however, as seems to be clear looking at the consensus forming above that your close was not appropriate. I don’t want you to think that I’m trying to say you intentionally supervoted here - but the fact is you seem to be unable to accept that your close amounted to a supervote, and you, to use your words, “unashamedly embraced” the initial, refuted claims, the refutation of which was agreed to in large part by most editors providing substantive comment after it. You also basically begged it to be taken here - I’m not sure if you did that because you felt confident that your close was not a supervote (when it was), or whether you just didn’t want to deal with it. But you were given the chance to expand on your claims in your close - and you instead posted basically the same closing statement with only a couple additions that did nothing to address the significant plurality (if not majority) of editors who directly discounted the claims you took as fact in your closure. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:22, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well said. I believe S_Marshall almost always does a terrific job, and is extremely valuable to the movement. I disagree with the close, for a similar reason you do, but I really hope it's not taken as a personal attack, but as a polite disagreement on something that is important to get right. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 00:43, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- The closer requirements involve being compatible with policies and guidelines. WP:RSP is neither so no arguer or new closer would have any obligation to be compatible with its idiosyncracies. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 16:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 4 per my !vote above. Option 2 is against current policy and would require changing WP:RSP or establishing a specific carve-out for this case, neither of which are palatable. Pinguinn 🐧 11:43, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 4, if that wasn't obvious yet. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:22, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 5. Astaire (talk) 13:59, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 5. Levivich (talk) 18:21, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
Option 5. James500 (talk) 07:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- This user has struck his overturn !vote.—S Marshall T/C 07:36, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 5 or Option 2 (preference in that order) Buffs (talk) 20:03, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 1/2. I think it probable that after properly weighing the votes consensus on reliability may be found, but failing that, I believe option 2 is warranted here, and every RfC should be determined on a case by case basis. JoeJShmo💌 21:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 5 except with a bit more direction as suggested by CoffeeCrumbs > Option 4 or Option 2. JoelleJay (talk) 04:44, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Could we be more specific about this "a bit more direction", please?This is a 36,000-word review of my close, so this close review is longer than Hamlet. It's also longer than MacBeth and The Tempest put together. (In comparison, the original discussion was 60,000 words or so. In total we've got a full novel's worth of text that we're proposing someone else evaluates.) Obviously, it remains my hope and expectation that the closer of this discussion will see that there isn't a consensus at this close review. But there's an unpleasant possibility that they will see it as consensus to overturn, and if they do, then I hope they will at least see that to revert my close as per option 5 and then give the new closer no guidance at all would be appallingly wasteful.So in that event, we definitely do need to provide this "a bit more direction" that JoelleJay and CoffeeCrumbs advocate. What should it say?—S Marshall T/C 14:52, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- The "particular guidance" would be to take into account the refutations to the nomination statement. Berchan's comment above expounds on this.
I read the "no guidance" option as "leave it up to the closer what to overturn to". Aaron Liu (talk) 14:57, 25 July 2024 (UTC)- Me too. Levivich (talk) 15:24, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yep. The fact that S Marshall clearly views this as the least desirable option has no bearing on the fact that in the absence of a consensus otherwise, overturning would mean just that, and no more. And despite his framing of the question here, that seems to be where a lot of the overturn support is leading.
- Me too. Levivich (talk) 15:24, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- The "particular guidance" would be to take into account the refutations to the nomination statement. Berchan's comment above expounds on this.
- Could we be more specific about this "a bit more direction", please?This is a 36,000-word review of my close, so this close review is longer than Hamlet. It's also longer than MacBeth and The Tempest put together. (In comparison, the original discussion was 60,000 words or so. In total we've got a full novel's worth of text that we're proposing someone else evaluates.) Obviously, it remains my hope and expectation that the closer of this discussion will see that there isn't a consensus at this close review. But there's an unpleasant possibility that they will see it as consensus to overturn, and if they do, then I hope they will at least see that to revert my close as per option 5 and then give the new closer no guidance at all would be appallingly wasteful.So in that event, we definitely do need to provide this "a bit more direction" that JoelleJay and CoffeeCrumbs advocate. What should it say?—S Marshall T/C 14:52, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- The crack about how many words have been spilt on this is disingenuous - it's not the fault of the Overturn supporters that S Marshall misrepresented the discussion so blatantly, any more than it is the fault of Chess and others at the RfC that there were so many false representations of the cited evidence in the RfC's proposal. There are a lot of bad arguments to dissect, it takes a fair number of words to do it. Personally, I'd blame the editors who clearly are here to right great wrongs by downgrading sources that disfavour their POV. Samuelshraga (talk) 19:31, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's definitely true that someone is making blatant misrepresentations to right a great wrong, although we differ about who it is.—S Marshall T/C 23:14, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- In case you thought I was saying you are here to WP:RGW, let me clarify that I don't make that accusation. I do think that of various Endorse and Option 3 supports here and at the RfC, based entirely on the content of their contributions (happy to bring specific examples if anyone demands them). My criticisms of your close have nothing to do with your motivations, I won't rehash those criticisms here, I think they speak for themselves.
- But you're welcome to think whatever you wish about why I'm here. If you've written me off as acting in bad faith, that might explain why I find your responses to my criticisms so unsatisfying. Samuelshraga (talk) 07:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's definitely true that someone is making blatant misrepresentations to right a great wrong, although we differ about who it is.—S Marshall T/C 23:14, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- The crack about how many words have been spilt on this is disingenuous - it's not the fault of the Overturn supporters that S Marshall misrepresented the discussion so blatantly, any more than it is the fault of Chess and others at the RfC that there were so many false representations of the cited evidence in the RfC's proposal. There are a lot of bad arguments to dissect, it takes a fair number of words to do it. Personally, I'd blame the editors who clearly are here to right great wrongs by downgrading sources that disfavour their POV. Samuelshraga (talk) 19:31, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Part 2
For !voters of Option 2, could you also clarify how "no consensus, defaulting to no change" should work based on the status quo at RSP:
- Option 1: The Telegraph RfC should be an exception to the status quo, therefore the no consensus close wouldn't change previous consensus
- Option 2: The Telegraph RfC and future no consensus RfCs should no longer replace any previously established consensus
- Option 3: All sources with no consensus should default back to any previously established consensus, retrospectively
- Option 4: No consensus RfCs should only be included on a case by case basis
- Option 5: Disagree that this is how RSP categorises sources
This is not an RfC, simply trying to clarify how "defaulting to no change" is supported. Pinging additional editors who expressed this view or touched upon it for comment: @Amakuru @Walsh90210 @*Dan T.* @BilledMammal CNC (talk) 20:13, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure there is an easy answer here. If we had say 50% (by numbers and quality of argument) say a source is 1 while the other 50% say 2, I would be inclined to go with status que. However, if things are the same ratios but we are dealing with 1 vs 3 (green vs red) then it seems hard to justify status quo. Perhaps I'm thinking about it a bit mathematically, but if nocon shifts it a half point I would err on the side of no change. If nocon shifts a whole point, I would move it. I would also note that if we are talking about moving the source up vs down I would err on the side of more general source inclusion vs less. As this applies to the discussion above, I would say such a clear divide should be yellow with an understanding that we really mean case by case, not yellow is generally excluded but perhaps could be used here or there. Springee (talk) 19:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- WP:MREL does state
"may be usable depending on context."
but nonetheless you make valid points, even if it's a big can of worms. If I understand correctly, what you're suggesting is a "case by case" assessment based on the RfC itself? The next question would be should this be decided by the closer, or by discussion and consensus at RSP? I've otherwise included another option for "case by case" basis of inclusion, which while I still think is a CoW, appears a relevant option based on your comment. CNC (talk) 19:44, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- Sorry, when I was talking about case by case I was referring to a source that is decided to be yellow and how we use it in articles. This is a general complaint about how yellow sources are sometimes treated as less legitimate than green ones. Sometimes editors play a game of green source beats yellow source and ignore case by case usage context. For example, if a green source briefly said, "this is bad" while a yellow source offers 3 detailed paragraphs discussing pros/cons but mostly pros in detail I wouldn't presume the green source article proves the yellow source wrong. In this case I would say the yellow source is the stronger of the two. As for RSN closings, I think they will always be case by case but hopefully most cases will be easier to untangle. Springee (talk) 20:54, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- My mistake. Naturally I agree that a compilation or MREL sources is more reliable than a single GREL, depending on the context of course, but generally I agree with the concept. I'm not sure what you mean by
"As for RSN closings, I think they will always be case by case but hopefully most cases will be easier to untangle"
. CNC (talk) 20:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- My mistake. Naturally I agree that a compilation or MREL sources is more reliable than a single GREL, depending on the context of course, but generally I agree with the concept. I'm not sure what you mean by
- Sorry, when I was talking about case by case I was referring to a source that is decided to be yellow and how we use it in articles. This is a general complaint about how yellow sources are sometimes treated as less legitimate than green ones. Sometimes editors play a game of green source beats yellow source and ignore case by case usage context. For example, if a green source briefly said, "this is bad" while a yellow source offers 3 detailed paragraphs discussing pros/cons but mostly pros in detail I wouldn't presume the green source article proves the yellow source wrong. In this case I would say the yellow source is the stronger of the two. As for RSN closings, I think they will always be case by case but hopefully most cases will be easier to untangle. Springee (talk) 20:54, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- WP:MREL does state
- Looking at WP:RSP, for several of the first "no consensus" colored topics, the discussions were closed with consensus (Anadolu Agency, AllSides Media, Apple Daily, Arab News). This "no consensus" supervote is not inline with general practice, and cannot stand. Walsh90210 (talk) 20:17, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- So Fox News and HuffPost (politics), among others, should be overturned, per Option 3? CNC (talk) 20:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- From Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_406#RfC:_downgrade_Fox_News_for_politics?:
It is clear the overwhelming consensus is to downgrade Fox News to generally unreliable for politics starting in November 2020.
Once again, there is consensus in the close. If the result here is "no consensus", it cannot be used to justify any change in treatment. Walsh90210 (talk) 20:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- No. Per WP:FOXNEWS:
"Historically, there has been consensus that Fox News is generally reliable for news coverage on topics other than politics and science. However, many editors expressed concerns about the reliability of Fox News for any topic in a 2023 RFC. No formal consensus was reached on the matter, though."
Should it be overturned then? Please tell me you otherwise looked past RSP entries beginning with A. CNC (talk) 20:23, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- Would you like me to reference WP:HUFFPOLITICS as well? CNC (talk) 20:35, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- No. Per WP:FOXNEWS:
- From Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_406#RfC:_downgrade_Fox_News_for_politics?:
- So Fox News and HuffPost (politics), among others, should be overturned, per Option 3? CNC (talk) 20:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I am strong on assuming that the status quo for no consensus at RSP holds for this discussion. I don't think we should be questioning the long-standing tradition at RSP, which has its own reason, to derail this CRV. If someone would like to change that, they should start their own proposal. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm also of the strong opinion that
"the status quo for no consensus at RSP"
is relevant, but the reality is many editors have expressed their concern over RSP listing prcoess and therefore it requires evaluation, here and now. This section of "Request for clarity" is not an attempt to"derail this CRV"
, but instead to refine discussion of this topic to this section. CNC (talk) 20:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)- Yeah, I know that nobody wanted to destroy our efforts here. However, in my opinion, if we try and bite off more than we may chew, that is what's going to happen. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm also of the strong opinion that
- Putting aside policy questions around privileging "status quo vs MREL", I think it's relevant that many editors who supported Option 1 and Option 2 in the RfC found that - especially after the detailed rebuttals (by Chess and others) - that there was simply no case to answer on unreliability, notwithstanding that some editors continued to allege it.
- The discussion wasn't framed around an open discussion of the question "Is the Telegraph reliable?" It was framed as "Do the examples brought by (mainly) Loki establish that the Telegraph is not generally reliable?"
- Editors who supported GREL clearly thought that the case for GUNREL had been refuted, and saw little need to make positive arguments in favour of GREL. If a finding of MREL is really the outcome of this close (or the close which follows it after overturning) of this RfC, it's implausible to me that a new RfC will not quickly be generated to make the positive case for reliability on transgender issues (and gender-critical views, which the closer inexplicably included).
- Quantitative arguments to do with the volume of articles published and number of factual inaccuracies, any retractions or corrections which have been published, Wikipedia:USEBYOTHERS and others spring to mind. I am sure that such evidence would have been raised if GREL supporting editors thought that the discussion would be interpreted this way. Samuelshraga (talk) 16:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- UBO was actually raised, though sources supplied to evince UBO were disputed; the dispute was not resolved by the time the second month came in and discussion fizzled out. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:14, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
An unrelated, modest proposal
Between this imbroglio and the one about the ADL RfC a few days ago, maybe we should just write down somewhere that any RfC with more than (500kb? 1mb?) of crap in it ought to be closed by a panel. Obviously not as a requirement, but it just seems practical. Is this anything? Does this have legs? jp×g🗯️ 21:13, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Agree . Because based on your threshold, it will always be contested. CNC (talk) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Before some offsite brane-geniouse[sick] [sic] adds to the red-string corkboard that this is some kind of veiled attempt at shady political ministration, I already commented in the RfC, and furthermore I do not particularly give a rat's what parliamentary hocus-pocus ends up happening here (or at XRV), it's just taxing to see one person try and sit down to close a Tolstoy-length RfC, immediately get massively BTFO at AN over the close, and then all their effort is wasted when a separate group of people sit down to write a panel close. jp×g🗯️ 21:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- This now sound like some kind of veiled attempt at shady political ministration. CNC (talk) 21:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Back in 2006 the phrase "muhahahahahahaha" was considered extremely random and funny, and I think we should have a revival. jp×g🗯️ 21:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- This now sound like some kind of veiled attempt at shady political ministration. CNC (talk) 21:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about absolutely requiring a panel close, since that would mean that some of these discussions would take months and months to be closed, but I do think I'd support a requirement for either an admin or a panel close. I think this particular close was good, but I'd really rather skip the inevitable-closure-review part of the process in the future as much as possible. Loki (talk) 21:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think recommending (not mandating) that such discussions are closed by a panel or highly experienced, clearly uninvolved single admin would be good. Not because non-admin closures are inherently bad (they aren't - some non-admins are better closers than some admins) but because close reviews based on alleged minor procedural errors or the admin status of the closer (which are becoming more common) are a bad thing. Maybe some sort of restriction that said someone who was involved in a discussion may not initiate a review of such a discussion within 48 hours of the close unless they get agreement from someone uninvolved or someone who supported a different outcome to them that a review is justified. However I don't know whether this would actually work or how it could be enforced - it would need more thought before it could be a viable proposal. Thryduulf (talk) 21:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I do think recommending an admin or panel close would be good for RFCs over a certain length, but it would also be a good idea to tack on RFCs in WP:CTOP areas. Most of the contested closes I see are in WP:AP2, WP:ARBPIA, or WP:GENSEX; for those we actually could require it and I think it would help significantly. There are a lot of CTOP areas and many of them are pretty quiet nowadays, so we might just want to do it in certain ones like what I listed here. The WordsmithTalk to me 22:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think there is solid evidence that panels (even admin panels) are less likely to be challenged these days. Also given the difficulties we already face in finding closers for such discussions I do not think it wise to add an additional procedural hurdle. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, it would be bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo in some cases, but I don't think the alternative is having no bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo. The alternative, which we are currently posting in, is a hundred-thousand-byte AN thread paired with a twenty-six-thousand byte XRV thread (and this is just on the first day of both). jp×g🗯️ 22:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you do the heavy lifting then you're going to get close reviews, panel or admin or bureaucrat or founder. We need to think about how we conduct them. I've noticed that someone who doesn't like your close virtually always alleges involvement, as well as supervoting and all the other things that challengers pretty much have to say, because we have this weird culture where saying "I think the closer was wrong" always fails but "the closer made a technical procedural error" often succeeds. If we change that culture we'll make better decisions.—S Marshall T/C 22:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, this is the most annoying part: even if the close is (imo) a correct interpretation of consensus, a single closer will often give rise to all sorts of objections along the lines of "well how do we know this random person is correct?" or "but they aren't even an admin!" or "they said while instead of whilst!" et cetera. This can give people a ready-made rationale to disregard or overturn the result later on because "well the close was half-assed" etc... in the example of the ADL RfC, there were actual think tanks and newspapers talking shit about the close, so I think that making it more difficult to raise objections to the manner of the close is overall better for the decisionmaking process.
- Of course this doesn't need to be done in all cases, but I think it would be condign to at least point out that people are prone to demanding it. jp×g🗯️ 22:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think the root of the issue is that closers are often vague. For example, in this close you say
on the basis of scholarly sources and an Ofsted report, various misrepresentations contained in that article are noted
. You don't explain what those misrepresentations were, which ones were supported with scholarly sources and an Ofsted report, or what the community consensus was on each of them. This makes it very difficult for editors to determine if your close is correct. - Sometimes this is even done deliberately, to make it harder to challenge the close, something I very much disagree with - if there is something wrong with a close we want to be able to identify it. I'm not saying you do this but some closers, by their own admission, do.
- Because this makes it difficult to determine whether the closer is actually wrong editors need to consider the information that is available to them - whether the close appears to be a supervote, and whether the closer has previously expressed opinions on the topic that might have tainted their reading of consensus. I think if we fix that issue, if we expect closers to provide more detail, then I think the rest will fix itself.
- That's not to say every close needs such detail, but some, including this one and the ADL one, would have benefited from it. BilledMammal (talk) 22:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Nobody at all is ever satisfied by providing more detail about the closing method, in any circumstances.
- In the 10+ years I've been closing RfCs on Wikipedia, I've been asked to expand on my close more than a few times. Exactly 100% of the people who asked for this have gone on to issue a close challenge, and exactly 0% of them have been satisfied.
- I'm afraid that long experience of this tells me the only reason anyone ever asks for more detail is because they're hoping you'll say something they can attack at AN.—S Marshall T/C 15:49, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I haven't been closing discussions for as long, and I focus more on RM's, but my experience differs - I find that sometimes the editors are satisfied by my expansion.
- Other times, they do go on to use what I said in a close appeal - but personally, I think that's a good thing. If I said something wrong then that means I probably made an error in my close and I want the community to be able to find and rectify that error. When closing, my goal isn't to write a close that will survive a close review, but to write a close that will accurately reflect consensus. BilledMammal (talk) 00:49, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- To expand on this, I wanted to use the example of a question I asked you:
What misrepresentations are you referring to here? As far as I can recall ... the only alleged misrepresentation raised was whether a student actually identified as a cat.
- If I was asked a question like this as closer I would be happy to answer it. This is because the nature of it means only two things can happen; either I can satisfy at least that concern, preventing or at least reducing the scope of any close review, or can I discover that my close was flawed. I see both these results as a positive.
- Honestly, I greatly respect you as a closer. In discussions about NACs I've previously cited you, along with Paine Ellsworth, as two of our best closers. In this case, however, I think you made a (very rare!) mistake. BilledMammal (talk) 03:57, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- To expand on this, I wanted to use the example of a question I asked you:
- The legal system has tried to solve this problem by having a standard of review. We should implement this on Wikipedia by clarifying what level of deference we give to closers, given that we already have this as an informal policy. In my opinion, we should only defer to the closer when a closing statement considered an issue being disputed, and when the closer's judgement is based on the arguments people have made. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 02:51, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Barkeep49 that there is no evidence that having a group of evaluators of consensus leads to less followup discussion. I also don't think it's appropriate to treat admins as being specially privileged to evaluate consensus. In my view, the problem is that the community has certain expectations regarding how consensus is evaluated, and typically there'll be someone whose viewpoint didn't prevail that chooses to point out any deficiencies they see. I know the community historically dislikes bureaucracy, but if we were to introduce some, I'd suggest building up a list of experienced evaluators of consensus who can be asked to determine the result of divisive discussions. Note that the only way to become experienced is to evaluate some discussions, so the community needs to be tolerant of users stepping up to do so, even if they make mistakes. Wikipedia:Discussions for discussion could serve as a place to foster greater experience in evaluating discussions (at its genesis, I had feared it would be just another place to where disputes would spread, but up until now, that hasn't happened). isaacl (talk) 22:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- At one point I had thought about proposing a userright flag called discussioncloser that could be given out to trusted users like template editor and rollback. It wouldn't have any technical permissions, but maybe there could be an edit filter restriction non-discussioncloser users from using our close templates on certain pages. The WordsmithTalk to me 01:45, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Closes are legitimate when they consider the necessary facts and provide clear reasons for decision. Panels assist greatly in this, because editors can compare notes and ensure they're not missing any relevant information. Obviously, people are going to complain no matter what, but a good close will explain why certain !votes were disregarded and others were not. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 02:19, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with this too. And especially when a discussion becomes lengthy, it is much more likely that whether intentionally or not, a closer misses significant portions of the discussion, or in other words, unintentionally falls into a vote-count just because one side may have significantly more words than another. It is not reasonable to expect one person to be able to read a lengthy discussion and not error in some way even if they take hours or days to read through it and attempt a closure. The beauty of a panel is that if one person, or even two, miss something, it is likely that the third/further person will catch it. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 03:08, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- While panel closes have their uses, I think that generally the best way to catch issues is by having the closer be more verbose. It doesn't increase their workload significantly, and it makes it easy for participants to catch errors and raise them with the closer. BilledMammal (talk) 03:22, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- One of the main benefits I found in doing a panel close on the ADL RfC was being able to workshop the close statement. Any of the three of us could have closed the thing in a way that was within a reasonable closer's discretion, but together we were able to talk through how the close statement would read to participants on both sides, to non-participants, to people looking back later, and to catch statements that might be too easy to take out of context, could be twisted to claim bias in one direction or the other, etc.The downside of a panel close is you need to find multiple people willing to take the same level of heat—all three of us in the ADL close panel have been criticized in multiple publications—and then get those people to coördinate. We spent hours on voice calls. Others may exchange many emails. With most things in life, teamwork reduces the total number of person-hours required, but with panel closes it actually increases it. Because of that, I'm not sure to what extent our volunteer ecosystem can support a greater number of panel closes than organically emerges. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 03:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think you make an important point about having at least a bit of review in the closing process, something the panel allows. Is there a way that we could have something like a RfC close, pre-close discussion for some of these topics? I think sometimes there is a level of momentum once the close is "official" but if the closer could state what they are thinking and allow editors some ability to chime in before the ink is dry, would that reduce some of the issues that you pointed out? I'm not sure if this is a practical idea or one that might cause more issues than it solves but perhaps it would help. Springee (talk) 03:26, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- As someone else noted somewhere in here, WP:Discussions for discussion exists. That said, when a major concern in closing a sensitive RfC is avoiding becoming part of anyone's narrative (to the extent it can be avoided), having a public drafting/review process, where everyone can see suboptimally-phrased past wording, would defeat a lot of that. But I think it's still better than nothing. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 03:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think you make an important point about having at least a bit of review in the closing process, something the panel allows. Is there a way that we could have something like a RfC close, pre-close discussion for some of these topics? I think sometimes there is a level of momentum once the close is "official" but if the closer could state what they are thinking and allow editors some ability to chime in before the ink is dry, would that reduce some of the issues that you pointed out? I'm not sure if this is a practical idea or one that might cause more issues than it solves but perhaps it would help. Springee (talk) 03:26, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with this too. And especially when a discussion becomes lengthy, it is much more likely that whether intentionally or not, a closer misses significant portions of the discussion, or in other words, unintentionally falls into a vote-count just because one side may have significantly more words than another. It is not reasonable to expect one person to be able to read a lengthy discussion and not error in some way even if they take hours or days to read through it and attempt a closure. The beauty of a panel is that if one person, or even two, miss something, it is likely that the third/further person will catch it. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 03:08, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- @JPxG, there's already often a backlog of RFCs for close at WP:CR. I don't see adding a suggestion that any RFC over certain length be closed by panel is going to help that, in fact it may just give challengers more ammunition in their claims that entirely reasonable closes are somehow bad. TarnishedPathtalk 03:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I can think of 3 panel closes off the top of my head that I strongly disagreed with. I won't name them because I don't want to call anyone out, but my impression is that panel closes do not help improve RFC closing accuracy, so I don't think it'd be a good idea to require them. –Novem Linguae (talk) 04:01, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- What would be helpful would be a way to stop editors turning RFCs into huge walls of text. In every RFC that ends up this way there are always a small handful of editors (not the same editors, but rather the editors who most care about the issue) that generate the most text. The rebuttal of an argument happens each time that argument is used, but that shouldn't be necessary (it not being a vote). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:18, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yet it basically was necessary here, and the closer still didn’t account for the rebuttal in their closure of the discussion. So if anything, this close, even if overturned, and the number of people supporting it shows that it is necessary to ensure people whose !vote is based on inaccurate information or an idea that has been disproven/rebutted strongly are aware of the fact their opinion is based on that and given a chance to review and expand upon it. And if they don’t, it can’t be claimed “they didn’t see the rebuttal” - it would have to be seen that they did see it, since pointed out to them, and chose to ignore it - which should result in a significant down weighting of their !vote indeed, as it’s basically an admission that “I can’t rebut that rebuttal”. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 15:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Outside of Wikipedia, this is done by having someone moderate the discussion. The English Wikipedia community has so far placed a higher priority on ensuring everyone gets to weigh in, out of a concern that any moderation would be unduly strict. isaacl (talk) 17:32, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I mean, WP:BLUDGEON is a conduct issue; people can and have been ejected from topic areas for repeatedly bludgeoning discussions. (If it's just one discussion where they lost their cool then it's probably not worth worrying about.) There's always the option to look up repeat offenders, nudge them to stop bludgeoning discussions, then drag them to AE or ANI if they don't listen. Doing that more often would encourage people to not be so bludgeon-y in general. Another thing that might discourage bludgeoning: Make it unambiguous that closers may, at their discretion, ignore all non-top-level comments in an RFC, if the RFC is already massive (of course this would have to be combined by making it clear to everyone that if they feel some point is vital, they need to edit it into their one top-level comment), and should even say that they're doing so so people understand that their elaborate back-and-forth arguments aren't even being read - to be clear, I'm not saying "exclude them when determining consensus", I'm saying closers should be specifically empowered to say "I'm not reading all that, I'm only reading the top-level comments." RFCs aren't supposed to devolve into threaded discussion anyway, so "at a glance this all looks like pointless natter between people who just want the last word and I'm going to disregard it" seems like a reasonable thing to encourage. Maybe even some sort of "just the main argument" viewer that specifically removes all responses. Or we could flatly forbid threaded responses in RFCs, confining them to a separate comment section that the closer is not required to read. --Aquillion (talk) 00:37, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think there is a consensus agreement in the community that requests for comments aren't supposed to have threaded discussion. Many of the editors who like to weigh in on how decisions are made think threading is important for facilitating efficient communications. (My variant on this is that I think we should consolidate discussion so the same topics aren't discussed in multiple threads, but that hasn't gotten a lot of support.) Since English Wikipedia's decision-making traditions are based on the idea of building consensus, I don't think enabling evaluators to say "I'm going to ignore the discussion" would gain favour.
- Yes, extreme cases of swamping discussion can get addressed. But communications rapidly bogs down way before that point, and before any point where sanctions would be deemed reasonable. The N-squared problem of trying to hold a large, unmoderated group conversation (where there are up to N-squared interactions that can occur) means that everyone can be acting in good faith and yet it becomes very difficult to follow all the points being made. isaacl (talk) 00:54, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Bludgeoning is a lot different than asking someone to reconsider their opinion or explain it further in light of information that they did not address in their original comment - regardless of whether that information was already present or not. Closers should certainly not be permitted to ignore the threaded discussion - because that in and of itself results in "first mover advantage". People would be able to make whatever claims they want, or make their initial !vote based on inaccurate information, and then the closer should just be allowed to ignore the replies/discussion that points that out? Absurdity. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 01:52, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- You have to let people seek consensus by talking to each other and you have to pay particular attention when someone changes their mind after being persuaded by a convincing point. But you can't allow a passionate editor to have a disproportionate effect on the discussion by sheer volume of text when they're not convincing anyone.—S Marshall T/C 07:16, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- If I infodump a wall of text and a dozen other editors cite it, that's not bludgeoning. Neither is posting rebuttals on their own.
- Bludgeoning is when an editor repeatedly makes the same argument. This is disruptive because redundant information does not add value to the conversation. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 13:09, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've been trying to think of the way to address this - you say
you have to pay particular attention when someone changes their mind after being persuaded by a convincing point
- that is exactly what happened in this discussion, yet you not only ignored it in your close, you actually found the opposite to have happened. You took those not commenting on the refutations to be claiming that they were wrong, you viewed those arguments to be "stronger" than those refuting the original claims (when the discussion makes clear it was considered opposite by a clear majority of those commenting on the refutations, rather than ignoring them), and you then impressed your personal opinion of the claims onto the close. You seem to be trying to claim that you ignored the refutations and their support because the editors supporting that view were passionate - that's absurd. Just because someone is passionate and/or points out and asks for others to address a comment that a significant plurality of editors not only addressed but agreed with (and in quite a few cases, changed their !vote after reading) does not make it bludgeoning, and even if it was bludgeoning, it does not make their opinions null and void. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 00:36, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- You have to let people seek consensus by talking to each other and you have to pay particular attention when someone changes their mind after being persuaded by a convincing point. But you can't allow a passionate editor to have a disproportionate effect on the discussion by sheer volume of text when they're not convincing anyone.—S Marshall T/C 07:16, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I mean, WP:BLUDGEON is a conduct issue; people can and have been ejected from topic areas for repeatedly bludgeoning discussions. (If it's just one discussion where they lost their cool then it's probably not worth worrying about.) There's always the option to look up repeat offenders, nudge them to stop bludgeoning discussions, then drag them to AE or ANI if they don't listen. Doing that more often would encourage people to not be so bludgeon-y in general. Another thing that might discourage bludgeoning: Make it unambiguous that closers may, at their discretion, ignore all non-top-level comments in an RFC, if the RFC is already massive (of course this would have to be combined by making it clear to everyone that if they feel some point is vital, they need to edit it into their one top-level comment), and should even say that they're doing so so people understand that their elaborate back-and-forth arguments aren't even being read - to be clear, I'm not saying "exclude them when determining consensus", I'm saying closers should be specifically empowered to say "I'm not reading all that, I'm only reading the top-level comments." RFCs aren't supposed to devolve into threaded discussion anyway, so "at a glance this all looks like pointless natter between people who just want the last word and I'm going to disregard it" seems like a reasonable thing to encourage. Maybe even some sort of "just the main argument" viewer that specifically removes all responses. Or we could flatly forbid threaded responses in RFCs, confining them to a separate comment section that the closer is not required to read. --Aquillion (talk) 00:37, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not a fan of panel closes either. The only concrete effect they seem to have is to make things take a lot longer. I also often get the feeling that the summaries suffer from the lack of a single author. Instead I'd encourage closers to make greater use of WP:DFD to workshop and solicit feedback on contentious closes before they post them. – Joe (talk) 11:43, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- For the concerns about backlogs noted above, I’m not sure mandating a panel closure for these long sorts of RfCs would be the best idea (having one person close it takes long enough, mandating that 3-4 negotiate a close would be a bit excessive) - that said, I’m supportive of mandating or strongly recommending that an uninvolved admin handle these closures. Yes, admins aren’t infallible, but it feels more appropriate to have someone who the community’s already entrusted with responsibility handle lengthy/contentious RfCs in CTOPs, rather than a normal user. The Kip (contribs) 18:07, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- The credibility of people like S. Marshall should be the least of our concerns here. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don’t have any opinion on the Telegraph RFC specifically as I didn’t participate nor have I read it - just giving my 2¢ on the proposal regarding large RFCs in CTOPs and such. The Kip (contribs) 06:07, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- We have many credible non-admin closers, so I don't think this is something we should "hunt down". Aaron Liu (talk) 15:35, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don’t have any opinion on the Telegraph RFC specifically as I didn’t participate nor have I read it - just giving my 2¢ on the proposal regarding large RFCs in CTOPs and such. The Kip (contribs) 06:07, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- The credibility of people like S. Marshall should be the least of our concerns here. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Also not a fan of panel closes. It's anecdotal, but I think the ratio of bad-closes/all-closes is worse for panel closes than individual closes. At the very least, anybody thinking about mandating panel closes in any situation should first gather some data about whether panel closes are any less likely to be wrong, challenged, or overturned, than non-panel closes. My impression is that Wikipedia has a lot of non-panel closes -- like dozens or hundreds or thousands, depending on the time scale -- and like less than 1% are wrong/challenged/overturned. Whereas Wikipedia has very few panel closes -- like single digits, maybe a dozen or two dozen in the last like 5 or 10 years? -- and a huge proportion of them (like half) are wrong, challenged, and/or overturned. But my anecdotal impressions aren't data; data would be useful. Levivich (talk) 18:20, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Any idea where to start looking to gather that data? Thryduulf (talk) 18:35, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's not useful data to have. People don't even ask for panel closes unless it's really super-contentious, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that more panel closes get challenged or overturned (which I don't know if it's true, but it does seem likely to me).—S Marshall T/C 19:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- For individual closes, maybe Legobot's contribs, and/or the page history of WP:CR, to gather a list of RfCs/discussions. But then after that I don't know, seems like a difficult task to calculate the total number of closed discussions vs. how many of them were challenged (AN archives will find some official close reviews, but that wouldn't include those that never went past the closer's talk page).
- As for panel closes, I don't even know... probably manually plucking them out of the gathered list of RFCs/discussions.
- Overall it strikes me as something that would basically have to be done manually and would take many hours. For a single year, it's maybe doable, but that would leave a tiny sample size of panel closes (maybe low single digits). For this reason, the efficacy of panel closes may never be fully understood. Levivich (talk) 19:29, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- One place to start might be extracting RFC closes from {{archive top}} and {{discussion top}} and checking for more than one signature/timestamp/userpage wikilink. That would reduce a lot of the noise and manual work. I've also thought about having the bot add an RFC tracking template when it removes the current RFC template after the 30 days expiration, that would improve data collection going forward. But on this issue specifically, I think admin or panel would be better than just mandating a panel. I'd also endorse creating a group or userright flag for experienced non-admins who the community trusts to close controversial discussions, and S Marshall would absolutely have a place on that list. The WordsmithTalk to me 16:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Any idea where to start looking to gather that data? Thryduulf (talk) 18:35, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Given that the attempt for a a single user to attempt a close ended up reverted and eventually led to a discussion where the user withdrew their close, I would say it needs more than one user to attempt a close. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:22, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think we could, instead, just let a second person try to close it, rather than throwing in the towel on single-person closes after one close. There has been so much ink spilled over one person's close. Levivich (talk) 12:47, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Subpage?
At the time of typing we're just over 30,000 words. I'm minded to move it to its own subpage?—S Marshall T/C 13:51, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Honestly, I think the relevant discussion has already run its course, and now it's mostly people just venting their personal dislikes of each side at one another. Probably better to just shut down the side discussions. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 20:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
I think it's worth adding that I read much of the discussion, researched some of the references given by the proposer, came the conclusion that they did not support what was claimed, saw that the inaccuracies had already been pointed out by other editors and decided not to contribute.
I'm now very confused. Since the allegations against the Telegraph were shown to be incorrect, I can't see how I could have added to the discussion according to Wikipedia practice, which is (or is supposed to be) don't simply repeat what has already been said. Perhaps the idea of consensus has now swung so far into the realms of "guess the majority" or perhaps it's "follow your political nose". The close to this RfC is not neutrally written - that's a shame. And it seems a political campaign has succeeded here, where it should not have.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough 23:48, 12 July 2024 (UTC).
Discussion seems to have died down, any chance a passing administrator wishes to evaluate if there is consensus to do anything about the close so that, if there is consensus to overturn, it can be re-added to the RSN page or at least given a new closure? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 03:40, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- When you think a discussion should be closed, leave a comment at Wikipedia:Closure requests, which I've just done. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- A close appears to be in progress. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:45, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's not a close. It's a !vote in a close box.—S Marshall T/C 11:28, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with that - not least it is based in part on a fundamental misunderstanding of RSP. Thryduulf (talk) 11:33, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Why do you see it that way?
- I will note that "personal note" sections aren’t uncommon - I’ve used them before to lightly trout participants - and shouldn’t be considered when assessing whether the close is appropriate or correct. BilledMammal (talk) 11:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- If you do, you shouldn't.
- Duly elected sysops get to make personal remarks that trout people, in threads about conduct. You won't find a single sysop who would have made that remark in this context.
- Except for sysops talking in threads about conduct, a close box isn't a space for putting down other people. It's not your role and it's not okay.—S Marshall T/C 12:37, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- For example, this. I feel and continue to feel it was appropriate. BilledMammal (talk) 12:48, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's a different example. You didn't make 'personal remarks' about other people in that close. Even though you quoted Tamzin, it is still making claims about how you feel on a certain topic.
- This close instead has a 'personal remark' that
S Marshall at least seems to have a stronger opinion on The Telegraph
which almost read like a diss to me. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 12:54, 7 August 2024 (UTC)- And there's also the substantive problem that Thryduulf articulated above. I know everyone's sick of the Daily Telegraph dispute, but this isn't okay and it shouldn't be allowed to stand because of discussion fatigue.—S Marshall T/C 13:02, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Then you’ll probably need to open a close review; for convenience, the template is {{RfC closure review}} BilledMammal (talk) 13:06, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well, no, that's not right. Firstly, I have to give the closer the opportunity to re-think; and secondly, this wasn't an RfC and doesn't get reviewed in the same way. Luckily there have been previous times when we've needed to review a review, so there is precedent for a process. That template's not it.—S Marshall T/C 15:13, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Passive aggressively linking a veteran user a template like this is the sort of temperature raising comments that a discussion like this sorely doesn't need, and reflects poorly on you. Parabolist (talk) 06:51, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I did it with the intent to be helpful; it's an obscure template that I think is useful and has been under-used in close appeals. BilledMammal (talk) 07:36, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Tone is difficult over text, but I'm not reading passive aggressiveness from BM's comment. I'm also a veteran, and I don't have every rarely-used template memorized. I could probably find it with a few minutes of searching, but a convenience link to a useful template or documentation of an obscure process comes off as a polite gesture to me. The WordsmithTalk to me 15:33, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- To add: it's not just an obscure template, it's also new, having been created less than a year ago. I wouldn't expect many editors, veterans or not, to know about it. Levivich (talk) 15:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Then you’ll probably need to open a close review; for convenience, the template is {{RfC closure review}} BilledMammal (talk) 13:06, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- And there's also the substantive problem that Thryduulf articulated above. I know everyone's sick of the Daily Telegraph dispute, but this isn't okay and it shouldn't be allowed to stand because of discussion fatigue.—S Marshall T/C 13:02, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- For example, this. I feel and continue to feel it was appropriate. BilledMammal (talk) 12:48, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Since I do seem to be coming down with discussion fatigue, I'm not sure how I feel about it, though I do feel like the version in the closer's sandbox was more concise and nuanced. Hopefully I won't be reverted if I add a separate GREL entry to RSP that says we find it biased but still reliable for facts. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:15, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sure how I feel about it
- Same. If someone appeals it I’ll consider it in more depth, but not until then. BilledMammal (talk) 13:20, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at User talk:Compassionate727 § Telegraph RFC. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:22, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's not a close. It's a !vote in a close box.—S Marshall T/C 11:28, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- A close appears to be in progress. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:45, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
Removal of closure
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Convenience link to Compassionate727's reverted close. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
In case anyone has subscribed to this threads the close of the RFC review has been reverted by Hemiauchenia as WP:BADNAC #2. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:21, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- My removal of the close has now been reverted. It says that close challenges should be made at WP:AN, so I guess this thread can suffice as place to make my case. As I previously said, It is not appropriate for a non-admin to close a highly contentious discussion like this per WP:BADNAC criterion #2.
The outcome is a close call (especially where there are several valid outcomes) or likely to be controversial.
If an admin were to reclose the discussion I would accept the result regardless of the outcome. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- This revert appears to have been reverted. Flounder fillet (talk) 21:26, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Copying my comment from C727's talkpage, as it fits better here:
That should be reverted. By longstanding community consensus, BADNAC by itself is not a valid reason to unilaterally overturn a close. I'd do it myself, but I participated in the close review.
If someone thinks this close was bad, then challenge it legitimately. This is exactly what SFR did to the original close and got dinged for. The WordsmithTalk to me 21:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)That should be reverted.
You may want to specify whether you support or oppose the NAC. "That" seems ambiguous to me. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)- It means the reversion of the NAC. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm going to include my comment I left over at Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources over here too. Though the BADNAC #2 reason by Hemiauchenia also applies in addition to what I'm pointing out below.
- "Funny that literally the entirety of the history of how RSN no consensus closes are done can be ignored just because of a controversial topic discussion happening. Someone needs to have the backbone to actually close with a determination on one side or the other or follow RSN rules on a no consensus close, because precedent is very blatant and obvious when it comes to RSN that no consensus means no consensus on reliability for the source in question. Since RSN is about affirmative reliability determinations, whether a source is reliable needs to be something we agree on. If we don't agree, then the source can't be considered WP:GREL by definition. Follow that link, it even says in the first line "
Editors show consensus that the source is reliable in most cases on subject matters in its areas of expertise
"." SilverserenC 21:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC) - I honestly don't know what the process is at this point. I had hoped the RFC and its close would be at least satisfying to both sides of the discussion, but both closes have failed in that respect. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't really want to do this (I don't have a strong opinion on the reliability of the Telegraph on transgender issues) but the unilateral precedent that "no consensus=no change at RSP" to the contrary of years of RfC discussions like the 2020 Fox News RfC in my opinion sets a really bad precedent that could badly affect future RSN source RfC discussions and couldn't go unchallenged. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:45, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- While I'm not entirely neutral (my !vote in the original RFC was for additional considerations) I absolutely agree with Hemiauchenia. Compassionate727's close was muddled in what it was closing and, even ignoring the other issues raised by others, cannot be allowed to stand based on the fundamental incompatibility between it and the explicit definitions (which are backed by literally years of consensus discussions) at RSP. It's a shame that Compassionate didn't self revert, and it's a shame we're now verging on edit warring about it, but some things are important enough that they need to be done right or not at all. Thryduulf (talk) 21:52, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- I completely agree, but I didn't mean the process for RSN/RSP in the case of no consensus. What I meant was what process to follow given that it doesn't appear Compassionate727 is going to self revert their close. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:57, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- No consensus always means more discussion (apart from anything else it might mean). Selfstudier (talk) 22:01, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- True in general but RSN discussion are not article content, and the RFC was not about how to update the RSP page. Rather RSP is a log of RSN discussions, which has always listed no consensus results as no consensus results. If it should list them that way and how RSP should work is a more generalised question than just the Telegraph, as it will effect more than just that one entry.
- As it stands the close of the review, specifically
The more urgent question is the practical one of whether a note ought to be made at RSP downgrading The Telegraph on transgender topics. On this question, I do find a consensus that the community did not articulate a sufficiently robust objection to merit that outcome. Thus, there is a consensus to overturn S Marshall's close and restore the previous status quo
, is a close that overturns the RFC close and recloses it as the Telegraph being reliable on trans issues. - Whichever side editors are on that is the situation as it stands. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:24, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'm confused by the outcome of this close. Did Compassionate find a consensus in this discussion that the Telegraph is generally reliable for transgender issues because opposers
not articulate a sufficiently robust objection
or is this a "no consensus" close defaulting to the previous "generally reliable" status (contrary to previous RSP handlings of no consensus discussions)? Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:41, 9 August 2024 (UTC)- Based on my understanding of what they wrote on their talk page, they found consensus to overturn the original close, no consensus in the original discussion and chose to restore the status quo at RSP (contrary to everything), the latter in part because of objections to downgrading based on no consensus in the close review (which were not actually that numerous despite being oft-repeated). Thryduulf (talk) 22:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Without reading any of this discussion, given the original RfC close still stands, then clearly it hasn't been overturned. The note at the top of it means jack shit, as the RfC was never properly overturned. CNC (talk) 22:47, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- @CNC I quite dislike C272’s close, but the note to me reads as “the reclose is located in the AN archives, since the original closer didn’t want to modify the {{rfc top}} template At RSN”. That is a way to overturn. Mach61 22:57, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Right, where there is a summary based on a review of the close, where scrolling through you get what you're looking for;
"I'll dither on whether there was a consensus that the original discussion should have been closed affirmatively in favor of option 1, [...]"
, so this isn't the RfC close then?"Thus, there is a consensus to overturn S Marshall's close and restore the previous status quo."
, so this is quasi-close then? That's one hell of a contradiction, as no doubt others have expressed already. Apparently the more important aspect was regarding RSP, but there was no consensus there either. Respectfully, the entire close review is a mess, and for anyone reading it it makes fuck all sense. I understand the original point you were making, but that is not how an RfC top note is supposed to work. It's supposed to be conclusive. CNC (talk) 23:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Right, where there is a summary based on a review of the close, where scrolling through you get what you're looking for;
- @CNC I quite dislike C272’s close, but the note to me reads as “the reclose is located in the AN archives, since the original closer didn’t want to modify the {{rfc top}} template At RSN”. That is a way to overturn. Mach61 22:57, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'm confused by the outcome of this close. Did Compassionate find a consensus in this discussion that the Telegraph is generally reliable for transgender issues because opposers
- No consensus always means more discussion (apart from anything else it might mean). Selfstudier (talk) 22:01, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't really want to do this (I don't have a strong opinion on the reliability of the Telegraph on transgender issues) but the unilateral precedent that "no consensus=no change at RSP" to the contrary of years of RfC discussions like the 2020 Fox News RfC in my opinion sets a really bad precedent that could badly affect future RSN source RfC discussions and couldn't go unchallenged. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:45, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- FWIW I also oppose this close, but I'd suggest if we're gonna do a close review of the close review we should probably make it its own topic. Loki (talk) 23:14, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- If anyone does this, please just focus on the inconsistent nature of the close itself, nothing to do with the original RfC. The issue here is with a close that makes little sense, not whether the intention of the close was accurate or not. CNC (talk) 23:22, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- This was a BADNAC, and per policy should not be shunted into a sideline. Keep the discussion tight, and keep it here. SerialNumber54129 23:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm torn. I'm pleased Compassionate727's close has been overturned because I'm convinced that it was wrong both on policy and fact; but I'm also appalled that it's been overturned by one person straight up reverting it.—S Marshall T/C 23:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing much support for the close, and it has some fundamental problems. It's result, no matter how it gets there, is to say there is consensus for the Telegraph being reliable for trans issues, which is close to being a super vote. But nothing at BADNAC, other than #2 that can be controversial, covers overturning it. At this point I would support that SerialNumber54129 has reverted it again as IAR. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't have an opinion about whether SN's removal again was appropriate, but I don't mind my original removal of the close being reverted either. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing much support for the close, and it has some fundamental problems. It's result, no matter how it gets there, is to say there is consensus for the Telegraph being reliable for trans issues, which is close to being a super vote. But nothing at BADNAC, other than #2 that can be controversial, covers overturning it. At this point I would support that SerialNumber54129 has reverted it again as IAR. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- My goodness. There was a relatively clear consensus here that the initial close of the RfC got it wrong for a specific reason - that arguments were not weighted and examined in line with policy and the initial close treated opinions of bias as equal weight to those based on the "evidence" of true unreliability. The person evaluating the consensus here observed that reason and the consensus here, and rather than reopen it for someone else to close simply overturned to the consensus clearly present in the original discussion after accounting for the !votes that were not weighted appropriately. And now either because some people refuse to move on and accept that the arguments made were not accurate nor evidence of unreliability, or because S Marshall refuses to accept they got it wrong, we are saying that a non-admin can't close this discussion, nor the original discussion. I find it interesting that people are arguing that this closure was a BADNAC but not that the original closure was one. I furthermore question why a non-admin would be allowed to close the original discussion and it not be a BADNAC as "contentious", but now that another non-admin has tried to close the close review (and as a part of that re-close the original discussion) it's somehow suddenly an issue. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 00:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- For the record, while I consider SMarshall's close was made in good faith, in retrospect it also seems like a BADNAC, which is why many participants in this discussion voted to overturn it. That why it's important an experienced admin closes the discussion. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:47, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I disagree with the statement that
seems like a BADNAC
waswhy many participants in this discussion voted to overturn it
. Rereading this close review, there was a clear consensus that the reason it should be overturned had nothing to do with how contentious it was, but with the fact S Marshall did not properly weight !votes that were based solely on opinion, did not properly apply the applicable section of WP:RS to !votes based solely on their bias, did not properly evaluate the fact that the initial concerns raised (and which many participants based their option 2/3/4 !votes on) were refuted and were shown to be at best inaccurate, and at worst deliberately misleading/misrepresenting... and the like. I disagree that an administrator would've been any more or less likely than S Marshall to make those errors. In fact, I don't even fault S Marshall for making the errors (only for failing to realize it after it was pointed out to him) - because it was such a large discussion. Call this reply a "defense" of S Marshall (in general) if you want, but it was not a BADNAC for an experienced user such as himself to make an attempt to close the discussion. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 00:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I disagree with the statement that
- For the record, while I consider SMarshall's close was made in good faith, in retrospect it also seems like a BADNAC, which is why many participants in this discussion voted to overturn it. That why it's important an experienced admin closes the discussion. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:47, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- While I appreciate Compassionate727's willingness to read and attempt to understand and close this discussion, after reading his rationale here and on his talk page, I see no way to square his (I find no other way to put this) supervote with either the discussion he was closing [here on AN], the original discussion at RSN, or the way RSP works. I was going to say that if he won't rescind to let an admin who understands RSN close this, then his close must be undone, and I was going to suggest that perhaps Thryduulf (if you're open to this: if not, I don't mean to volunteer you; I just think you've articulated the problems with the close most fully, of the many, many people who have now articulated them) compose the formal close challenge to Compassionate727's close (which, AFAICT, would be its own new level-2-headered section on AN). I see that in the meantime the BADNAC has been (re)undone by SerialNumber on NOTBURO grounds, which is reasonable. While the closure of the original RSN discussion was by all appearances made in the good faith belief that the discussion's (no-consensus) outcome was so abundantly clear as to be closable by a non-admin, all of the subsequent discussion has made clear that this discussion, especially this discussion here at the Administrator's noticeboard, probably needs to be closed by a knowledgeable administrator. -sche (talk) 00:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I am curious how you clarify your view, in light of the fact that the consensus of this close review was that the original closer did not properly weight opinions in line with the policies/guidelines in play. In what way can you determine, without re-closing the discussion and explaining your weighting, that "no consensus" was the appropriate outcome given the consensus in the close review that there was not proper weighting? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 00:48, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I don't understand your comment about "
the consensus of this close review
": whether this AN close review of the RSN discussion found consensus for anything has not been ascertained. (Compassionate727 attempted to ascertain it, but made so many errors obvious to so many other editors that his close was undone, so as of the time of your and my comment, the discussion has not been closed as finding consensus for the position you state, or any other.) -sche (talk) 01:08, 10 August 2024 (UTC)- Okay, I'll wait to question the conflict in your statement until this close review is accurately re-closed as "consensus to overturn". There is a clear consensus in this close review, and if you're going to call the initial close by C727 a "supervote" without expressing why you are ignoring that clear consensus, then I feel you should expect to be asked to explain that. It sounds like you've made a determination that the initial close result of "no consensus" was correct - I am asking you to explain that in light of the many people above in this close review who expressed (without being refuted) that that was not the correct result, if weighting was done properly. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 01:13, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- There are a lot more people who disagreed with Compas's re-close to "retain status quo" than people who object to the "no consensus" assessment by Marshall. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:02, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I can't see that there are. There's maybe half a dozen in my count - to be generous, I'll call it a full dozen - editors who are disagreeing with C727's close. There were multiple dozens of editors who disagreed with the initial close by S Marshall. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 04:59, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- There are a lot more people who disagreed with Compas's re-close to "retain status quo" than people who object to the "no consensus" assessment by Marshall. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:02, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, I'll wait to question the conflict in your statement until this close review is accurately re-closed as "consensus to overturn". There is a clear consensus in this close review, and if you're going to call the initial close by C727 a "supervote" without expressing why you are ignoring that clear consensus, then I feel you should expect to be asked to explain that. It sounds like you've made a determination that the initial close result of "no consensus" was correct - I am asking you to explain that in light of the many people above in this close review who expressed (without being refuted) that that was not the correct result, if weighting was done properly. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 01:13, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I don't understand your comment about "
- @-sche I'm honestly confused as to what the current status of C727's close is. If it does need to be formally challenged I could do that but I'd rather someone who has been less vocally involved in the discussion do it. Additionally I don't know whether I've got the block of time I'd want to spend getting such a challenge well worded before next week. Thryduulf (talk) 09:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I am curious how you clarify your view, in light of the fact that the consensus of this close review was that the original closer did not properly weight opinions in line with the policies/guidelines in play. In what way can you determine, without re-closing the discussion and explaining your weighting, that "no consensus" was the appropriate outcome given the consensus in the close review that there was not proper weighting? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 00:48, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think the argument that non-admins can't close contentious RFCs is a weak one. In practice, non-admins close RFCs, including contentious ones, all the time. If this was a newer editor closing this RFC, sure, that could be a BADNAC. But Compassionate727 has many tens of thousands of edits. If it had been pre-agreed that only an admin could close this, or only a panel could close this, then sure, that'd also make sense. But I don't see such a pre-agreement. I think we should restore Compassionate727's close, and then this can be handled in the normal way: accepting the close and having a de facto moratorium on discussing this for awhile, then re-RFCing this in 3-6 months. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with this - and I would also be very uncomfortable with us treating the revert of C727’s close any differently to how we treated the revert of SM’s. BilledMammal (talk) 07:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Conversely, I think this was a classic WP:BADNAC, and not just because the closer was not an admin per se but because they went out of their way to ignore policy here, such as how no consensus at RSP works, and make a WP:SUPERVOTE not just on whether the discussion should be opened but on how it should be closed.
- If the close is restored, I'm definitely going to make a close review for the close review, and if I don't someone else will. "Accepting the close" is not an option here since so many people think it's so bad. Loki (talk) 07:46, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- FYI, there is no policy about how RSP works. BilledMammal (talk) 07:59, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Of all the reasons why C727's close was bad, that they are not an admin is by far the least important and if I do end up writing a formal review request for it (as @-sche suggested above) then it is almost certainly not something I would even mention. An identical close by an admin would have been equally bad. Thryduulf (talk) 09:56, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- To be completely honest, I don't have an informed opinion on the issue of the Telegraph's reliability on trans issues, nor do I have the time to read through the mountain of an RfC and discussion here to help develop one - however, as an outside observer of RSN and AN, what I do know is that it's been debated to death across these two boards over the last few months, and I find the idea of re-litigating the re-litigation to be a massive waste of the community's time at this point. Virtually everyone with an opinion has already had their say, and many on either side of the debate are continuing to beat the dead horse by restating their opinions ad nauseum, which is just as unlikely to lead to any sort of consensus as the prior two discussions. Therefore, I endorse Novem Linguae's proposal to restore C727's close with a moratorium on discussion - at least give it a few months before the next chapter of this mess, and maybe some fresher perspectives will emerge there. Either that, or have an admin panel give the final say here. The Kip (contribs) 08:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I very strongly oppose restoring/reinstating/letting stand C727's close unless and until there is a community consensus to fundamentally change how RSP works first. This is very significantly more important than discussion of any individual source as it alters the very definition of what "reliable source" means. Thryduulf (talk) 09:59, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well, now we've managed to make this so toxic that it can only be closed by a panel of three sysops, all of whom must be unsullied virgins who're intimately familiar with WP:RSP but have never expressed a view about how it works. It could be a fixture here on the AN for months.—S Marshall T/C 09:13, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- So far we have found no consensus in the original RfC and no consensus that there was no consensus; no consensus that the close was good or bad, and if it was, no consensus on why; no consensus that the close review of the close was good or bad, and if it was, no consensus on why; no consensus on whether there is a consensus about what no consensus means, or should mean, at RSP. I now see no consensus on whether the way forward is to open a close review of the close review of the close. Maybe we could open a subthread on whether to describe this all as a dead horse or a trainwreck (my vote is Option 1: dead horse). Maybe it's time for the current crowd to step aside, and let editors who have not previously commented on the matter take it forward. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 11:50, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't participate until recently, to me nocon means discussion continues. As to what to do in the interim, I agree with Thryduulf, viz MREL = no consensus that the source is generally reliable or generally unreliable. Selfstudier (talk) 11:55, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- So far we have found no consensus in the original RfC and no consensus that there was no consensus; no consensus that the close was good or bad, and if it was, no consensus on why; no consensus that the close review of the close was good or bad, and if it was, no consensus on why; no consensus on whether there is a consensus about what no consensus means, or should mean, at RSP. I now see no consensus on whether the way forward is to open a close review of the close review of the close. Maybe we could open a subthread on whether to describe this all as a dead horse or a trainwreck (my vote is Option 1: dead horse). Maybe it's time for the current crowd to step aside, and let editors who have not previously commented on the matter take it forward. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 11:50, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think this comes down to how should a no consensus discussion be handled at RSN/RSP. I know there was a recent discussion on this question (talk:RSP ?) and answering it would probably be most helpful here. That said, it also highlights one of the big issues with RSP where we treat the colors as if they are rock solid vs what RS and NPOV say, asking if this specific source is reliable for a specific claim and should this claim be in the article. Anyway, at RSP we all agree that a consensus that a source is marginal/other considerations apply = yellow. The case of no consensus is less clear and I can see both arguments. Additionally, while some no consensus topics have gone to yellow, I suspect of we look back at some of the green sources that contain notes about bias concerns, some of those might also be no consensus if we are strict about the reading. It would probably be best to come up with a clear path for cases like this. That or tell people that RSP is only a guide and shouldn't be given much weight when deciding case by case questions. Springee (talk) 11:27, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
The case of no consensus is less clear
this is a claim I've only started seeing since the Telegraph RFC was closed. The definitions used uncontroversially for many years at RSP actually make it explicit: GREL = a consensus that the source is generally reliable. MREL = no consensus that the source is generally reliable or generally unreliable. Thryduulf (talk) 11:42, 10 August 2024 (UTC)- There's currently a discussion at RSP about the colors of NOCON. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:44, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- After reading everything here too, I'm going to rescind my close. It's clear very few people actually understood what I was trying to do, which is my fault for being vague and noncommittal. I had found a consensus that S Marshall weighed the votes incorrectly and the discussion should have been closed in favor of option 1, as well as a surprising lack of consensus that a result of no consensus should have resulted in downgrading at RSP. I tried to restore the previous status quo on the basis of both of those things; in hindsight, I should have stuck with the former and made the latter just a comment or something. Lesson learned, and I'm terribly sorry I put everyone through this circus. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 13:11, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for making this decision, I think it's the right call. I don't doubt the original RfC could have been correctly closed as Option 1, and it seems clear now there was rough consensus for the original close should be overturned due to numerous issues. My main issue, similar to others, was with the RSP decision that had much broader implications without the consensus to support it. If there was lack of consensus that the result of NC should result in downgrading at RSP – personally I don't think there was as arguments were well refuted, but let's assume there was – then the status quo should remain for RSP, that of categorising as MREL. Naturally this puts this status quo, based on lack of consensus, in conflict with overturning the original RfC to the previous status quo, based on lack of consensus also. CNC (talk) 13:33, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- It seems to me the obvious thing to do is to revert the RFC close and let someone else close it. Until that happens, all this other discussion is unproductive. Levivich (talk) 15:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Community ban proposal for Wikieditor662
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
So after this thread advising this editor to slow down and not to jump into Wikipedia's deepest waters , Wikieditor662 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) took it upon themselves to create a good article review and pass a page as a good article. Enough is enough; Wikipedia does not have the time or resources to deal with such rank incompetence. I'd do the indefblock myself but I'm far too involved. Pinging those involved in the previous discussion: @Lemonaka, Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Gerda Arendt, Usedtobecool, Softlavender, Aza24, Super Goku V, GhostOfDanGurney, Robert McClenon, and Just Step Sideways:. Also see their aborted arbitration request, which is just another piece of weirdness from this user. I was beginning to be more inclined to assume good faith with them but now I'm not so sure. I started this discussion here per the guidance in the banning policy; if I should have made it a subsection of the previous ANI discussion, or something else, then feel free to move/reformat it as required. Graham87 (talk) 04:24, 5 August 2024 (UTC) P.s. the article in question is Nimm von uns, Herr, du treuer Gott, BWV 101; here's a video of the work (uploaded by the copyright owner), which would make excellent accompanying music for any Wikipedia editing in my opinion. Graham87 (talk) 04:39, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
I find it interesting that this was the first time they edited the article in question, so far as I can tell. It was right after Gerda Arendt's GA nomination of the article. Kinda thinking that they followed them to that article.Might have been in good faith, but this is still disruptive. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:08, 5 August 2024 (UTC)- I've checked and Gerda did mention the article on Wikieditor662's talk page. Graham87 (talk) 05:36, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ah gotcha. At least that clears up how they got there. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:53, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've checked and Gerda did mention the article on Wikieditor662's talk page. Graham87 (talk) 05:36, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support but I do believe in the good faith enough to prefer a WP:BANLENGTH in this case. I hate to be so quick on WP:CIR, but this editor appears to be so determined to dive into the deep end, despite a lot of feedback advising them to slow down, that I think they have to be forbidden from swimming in the pool for the time being. Hopefully they will take swimming lessons during the sojourn.
- I've done very little GA-stuff myself, so I'm not the one to judge how weird this is. My first guess would be they followed the "Anyone who has not contributed significantly to (or nominated) this article may review it according to the good article criteria to decide whether or not to list it as a good article. To start the review process, click start review and save the page." at Talk:Nimm von uns, Herr, du treuer Gott, BWV 101. If the nomination page was out of sync with Wikipedia:Good_article_nominations/Instructions#Reviewing I can't say. BUT in GENERAL, I wouldn't recommend GA-reviewing to someone who started editing in July. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:47, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support. It is hard not to conclude, after all the month-long disruption, time-wasting, and innocence/ignorance-feigning that has transpired, and now this, that we are not being massively trolled. Even were we not being trolled, this editor would need a CIR ban for being a net negative. Softlavender (talk) 07:00, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - Ugh! I will take another look at this when there is daylight in Eastern North America and when I should be awake. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:46, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose at this point. WE editor made their first edit in early July, - it's not months long. It was to a list of composers. I noticed WE with the idea to make Bach a featured article, and thought they have no idea. Next thing I noticed was wanting to write the legacy of Beethoven, and I thought who do they think they are? Then came the idea to link that list of composers, and to link it from the word "composers". This breaks both WP:Overlink (composers is a common word, and needs no link at all} as WP:EASTEREGG (a link should go to the expected subject, not some list, even if it is an informative list). I have begun conversation about this topic on WE's talk, and would like to continue. Overnight, they declared an article I had nominated for GA, a Good article. This is nonsense, of course, but I can see that they might have thought "good article" just means one editor reads it and thinks it's good. Summary: I see a new editor with (too) high ideas, (too) convinced that their ideas are better than what experienced editors have told them, - can these problems change, that is the question, but I think a ban is not the answer. I'd ask WE if they see a chance to change the problematic attitude and to listen. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:31, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. This is a really common pattern. You get an enthusiastic new editor who wants to contribute to Wikipedia but doesn't know what specifically to work on. They don't get the hint that what they're supposed to do is work on content or low-profile maintenance backlogs while they gain experience. Instead they take "anyone can edit" a bit too literally and jump in at the deep end, and more often than not end up blocked. But to be fair, we do say the anyone can edit, and they can see that experienced editors flit between ANI and ARC and GA with no problems. It isn't unreasonable to try and follow that model and not everyone is equally able to read between the lines of policies and guidelines. I'm not saying this isn't disruptive, but like Gerda I'd really like to find a more constructive way of dealing with this pattern. – Joe (talk) 08:47, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose per Gerda's reasoning. And I'd also like to hear from Wikieditor662 before the ban hammer is dropped. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:41, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you all for your time.
- The good article nomination writes that "The nomination may be reviewed by any registered user who has not contributed significantly to the article." I did overlook the part that says "If you are not a significant contributor to the article, secure the consent of the significant contributors before nominating." However, the part that seems to be the problem is that I'm a month old account doing this, but it's confusing as nowhere did I find it saying you have to be very experienced to review good articles. Why is that? Also, I don't understand what was wrong with my nomination, as I did follow the criteria and it passed all of it.
- Even though I don't agree with every accusation, from everyone's comments it seems that I have wasted much of people's time, and I deeply apologize for that. Timesinking or trolling is not at all my intention and I just want the best for Wikipedia. If a ban on me is necessary, then I understand. I am very ambitious and I guess this is causing damage. Wikieditor662 (talk) 14:16, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Because ... most people wouldn't be confident enough in their abilities to write a good article review until they're experienced editors. I for one have never done one in my life and don't plan to; I don't like seeking out accolades for my own articles and am not really a fan of the system around it ... and it's a lot of responsibility to put on one person. Ambitious people either sink or swim hard on Wikipedia, and it looks like you're doing the former. Graham87 (talk) 15:30, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose yes I think we can all agree that a couple of Wikieditor662's actions are misguided and disruptive, but they appear to stem from a desire to contribute positively rather than from malicious intent. And from their talk page, they seem to be very eager to learn from their mistakes. We should not ban such a new user so prematurely. We should continue to be patient and offer constructive feedback and guidance, and encourage them to carefully read our policies and guidelines. Zingarese talk · contribs (please
mention me on reply; thanks!) 15:45, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - A sports analogy comes to mind. WikiEditor662 is a sports fan watching a game and wanting to play, not knowing much about the rules. Their entry is a one-person pitch invasion, which is no more useful than any pitch invasion. However, this is a game that almost anyone can play, if they learn the game, which this editor does not want to do. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:12, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Weak Oppose, after sleep and consideration. What is needed at this time is a warning or admonition, and a signal to admins that they should be quick to administer blocks for disruption, which should begin as short blocks and then escalate. WikiEditor662 says, in their statement, that they are very ambitious. They will never be an administrator. Will they be satisfied to be an editor, or to find a special niche? Their intentions are good, but they are doing harm. We need to respond in a way that is not excessive, but is strongly discouraging. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:12, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Robert McClenon summarizes it all quite nicely. Enthusiasm can't overcome ignorance. Buffs (talk) 20:14, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose per Zingarese and Robert McClenon. They should certainly be given a very short WP:ROPE going forward, but an outright CBAN at this moment feels a bit WP:BITEy. The Kip (contribs) 20:31, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support After reading Wikieditor662's response above I'm settling on support, as I do not believe they actually understand the problems they're creating and intend to change. Nowhere in there is an acknowledgement that they've been asked to tone it back or slow down, and haven't listened; in fact just the opposite -- they contest (some of) the accusations, and the response is tantamount to "This is what I want to do, deal with it, ban me if you must." They even go so far as to acknowledge that their behavior has wasted our time -- a "I'm sorry you were hurt by this" response, not a "I'm sorry I did the thing" response. Maybe they're capable of one day becoming a competent editor here, but the cost-benefit of working with someone who doesn't want to listen or change just isn't there. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 22:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't agree with the statement that I don't want to listen or change. And I don't agree with "this is what I want to do, deal with it". I'm constantly trying to improve and I DO listen, the problem is that sometimes I think an edit is good when others don't see it that way, and when multiple experienced members tell me to stop I do so even if I don't agree with it. And if you look at some of my other responses, I have apologized for what I did with continuing the composer linking thing after Gerda asked me not to. Wikieditor662 (talk) 00:11, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Also, for the part where you said "they contest (some of) the accusations" -- I think I have every right to not blindly agree with every accusation thrown against me. Wikieditor662 (talk) 00:26, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't agree with the statement that I don't want to listen or change. And I don't agree with "this is what I want to do, deal with it". I'm constantly trying to improve and I DO listen, the problem is that sometimes I think an edit is good when others don't see it that way, and when multiple experienced members tell me to stop I do so even if I don't agree with it. And if you look at some of my other responses, I have apologized for what I did with continuing the composer linking thing after Gerda asked me not to. Wikieditor662 (talk) 00:11, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Comment:Wikieditor662, no one here (or anywhere else on Wikipedia, as far as I have seen) is asking you to blindly agree to anything—or anyone else. This is a collaborative project; editors from many countries, many levels of education, many levels of writing experience, many different political views... Most of the policies and guidelines here are necessary for all to work together.
- Please be much slower to make edits and to reply to talk page discussions or here on ANI. Think three times, wait a day. Until you make such a commitment editors will not take you seriously. Really. Mostly read, compare, and make useful, short edits. You are off to a fast start, but you are not carefully examining statements from experienced editors. Consider making only a few edits to Wikipedia each day while reading policies, guidelines, and essays. Help make this a better place to work. I suggest this will bring you acceptance as an editor. This notice board is expecting a change in attitude—show that you pay close attention to advice; evidence so far indicates that you do not. Please, show you are worth the time invested by others. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 04:23, 6 August 2024 (UTC) —
- (Thanks for the ping) It is certainly disappointing to see disruption has continued since I looked at this last, and Graham may as well ultimately be vindicated on their instincts here, but again, this feels a bit rushed. New editors get a bit more opportunity to clean up their act, and the disruption isn't severe enough to justify an exception. The new incident appears to involve deleted page/s, so I could be missing things that Graham saw, but, it looks to me like Wikieditor got the idea to do Gerda a favour or at least collaborate with them on that, as a consequence of the conversation that they were having. We've got half a dozen experienced editors, including admins, functionaries and arbs in conversation with them. New instances of disruption might have been best brought up in that thread; I am sure they could have come up with the right remedy without need for a broad community input here. The conversations don't give out IDHT vibes. I would expect the respected editors to present with increasing firmness, issue more straightforward warnings, maybe block warnings, and even shorter blocks before we get to this point. I do not think a sufficient case has been made that a prospective volunteer in their first days has established themself beyond doubt to be irredeemable. So, I would have to oppose at this point. Usedtobecool ☎️ 10:56, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: It's nice to find that Wikieditor662 has taken on the advice here and focused on tasks that are more suitable for a new editor. I like most of their five recent edits, except two of them. Firstly, there was this mistake (involving the removal of too many words) at the Alfred Lennon page that was quickly corrected by WWGB (mistakes happen, no biggie, but it's good that that article is well-watched). More concerning (but still not quite as serious as what led to this discussion) ) is this trivial reply on that article's talk page in response to a 4-year-old drive-by IP comment about this person's notability that "He's the father of John Lennon", which contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion; hopefully my reply contributes a little more. I accept that this discussion probably won't result in a ban, but it might be worth keeping an eye on their edits for at least a little while (which I'm sure will happen naturally). Graham87 (talk) 02:54, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Opposed gross negligence of a somewhat new editor doesn't deserve as long a block as we think, plus they have shown just recently that they are willing to learn. If it were a long-time abuser, I would be less sympathetic. Conyo14 (talk) 04:25, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I'm not familiar with this case at all, I only proposed a check for them in previous case. However, if they are truly new user, then check user is not needed right? -Lemonaka 17:42, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- I haven't been around a lot lately, but I felt compelled to log in and comment when I saw this thread and looked into the situation a bit further. There was a time a bit over a decade ago where I was a new, younger (age-wise) editor with a lot of enthusiasm for contributing to the project. My enthusiasm led me to make some mistakes and definitely got me into some trouble. If it weren't for the good faith and patience of many of the editors I encountered back then, I probably wouldn't be around here today. Although I cannot be sure where Wikieditor662 falls on the age scale, I see many similarities between my earliest days on the project and where Wikieditor662 seems to be at right now. Perhaps that blinds me and makes me too sympathetic, but I must oppose a site ban at this time. I think excessively harsh sanctions could rob us of someone who could yet become a very valuable contributor. Wikieditor662 has received a lot of helpful advice from others, so I won't add too much to it. My general advice to Wikieditor662 is to slow down and think about what you're doing before doing it. Try to be aware of the relevant policies and guidelines before diving into something new or making major changes. Start small and work your way up to bigger things; there is no rush. I wish Wikieditor662 the best, and I hope I don't see them here or at ANI again. I am willing to afford a lot of rope to newer editors, but the rope is not infinitely long. MaterialsPsych (talk) 20:02, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support Like Graham87, Robert McClenon, and Softlavender said, this is the dogpile of WP:SEALION WP:CIR WP:ICANTHEARYOU WP:NOTGETTINGIT WP:NOTHERE. Wikipedia is one of the Internet's definitive golden honeypots for abusers. Wikipedia's insane and derelict policy of open editing with absolutely no training, no vetting, no apprenticeship, no reputation, is the primary offender, with a culture of admins afraid of each other in doing obviously necessary protections. That big lie of "anyone can edit" (and that we desperately need anyone to edit like it's 2001) is the bait, and zillions of bored people per day take the bait. This user is the archetypal everyday victim-accomplice who learned barely enough rules to play WP:SEALION and to retaliate; and most wikiveterans exhibit Stockholm Syndrome, musing from within the eye of the dysfunctional hurricane system that is this site. Several people inverted Robert McClenon's comment with drive-by projections of the magical idea that this user hasn't already been exhaustively instructed and admonished countless times in entirely dedicated threads, including his own retaliatory thread against Graham87.[4] And more outrageously, the aggressive projection of their own competency upon this abuser's WP:CIR black hole by magically guessing that this one user might become invaluable someday, but ONLY if he's coddled and not if he's stopped. One of the countless absolute final confirmations of abject capitulation to all those principles is the offender's comment in this thread, supporting being banned. It's another in a long line of shameless confessions that he simply will not learn and will not voluntarily stop. He shamelessly said "Thank you all for your time." which is all this energy vampire wants, as has been already concluded in multiple community-wide admonition threads. A massive "time sink" is the main description everyone has had of this user in those countless prior threads. When someone confesses who they are, you believe them. Wikipedia culture is contrary to that common sense and decency, and well into extreme coddling of abusers like it's a sport, and civilly implicitly systemically counterbullying anybody who draws a line. I truly love and admire and thrive on your commitment and attitude but not on the toxic positivity surrounding abusers. Your tolerance of abuse doesn't make it not abuse. Stop forcing the world to share your hypertolerance of abuse. Thank you. — Smuckola(talk) 20:39, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- I understand you have some concerns, but surely calling me a "vampire" and "shameless" for thanking others for their time is a bit much, no? Wikieditor662 (talk) 21:59, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- When you refer to
the offender's comment in this thread, supporting being banned
, I'm assuming you're referring to the statementIf a ban on me is necessary, then I understand
. That doesn't come across to me as an outright support for the ban, but rather an understanding that their actions have led to a community ban being a reasonable possibility. I'm also not inclined to throw the NOTHERE label at them, given that WP:NOTHERENORMS seems more applicable in this case. Besides that, I see where you're coming from Smuckola. I don't want to "hypertolerate" abuse or "counterbully" anyone who draws a line, but perhaps I am blinded and prejudiced by my past experiences in not wanting to give them one of the harshest punishments that we can dole out to someone and in thinking that they will, with some difficulty, contribute constructively. I hope they're able to take the advice that they've been given on board and correct their approach to editing. If that doesn't happen very soon, I see an indefinite block in their future, and I wouldn't be opposed to it under those circumstances. Wikieditor662 should recognize that they're on very thin ice right now by virtue of this thread taking place and the fact that the community ban proposal has gotten some support. With that, I won't spend any more of my energy defending them. MaterialsPsych (talk) 23:53, 7 August 2024 (UTC) - Just wow. Even *I* think that was over-the-top ... I referred Smuckola here in this thread on my talk page, not expecting a response like that. As noted at Wikieditor662's talk page, their measured response here does indeed reflect well on them. Graham87 (talk) 05:35, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Wikieditor662 is here to build this encyclopedia. Over enthusiastic for his first month here, yes. Needs to follow advice, yes. Needs learn more about how Wikipedia works, yes. But look how mildly Wikieditor662 responded to a blatant PA—vampire & shameless in the same sentence? Some editors, even here, with much longer tenure, have yet to learn that very basic rule of behavior. Several participants in this discussion have agreed to help this editor—I am already watching and trying to intervene. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 01:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC) —
- ps Perhaps Smuckola should strike a bit from a line in his, um, !vote. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 01:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC) —
- Support having Smuckola strike that, it's a objectively a PA. The Kip (contribs) 00:36, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- ps Perhaps Smuckola should strike a bit from a line in his, um, !vote. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 01:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC) —
Unblock
Why did you block me? Hippobunny123 (talk) 05:55, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- If you posted here, you are not blocked, unless you created this account to post here, thus evading your block. 331dot (talk) 06:21, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- This was their only edit. They did create the account to post here. Who are they? Robert McClenon (talk) 07:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- CU shows nothing. Doug Weller talk 08:53, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- This was their only edit. They did create the account to post here. Who are they? Robert McClenon (talk) 07:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Tell us who you are and what you did. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:44, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, here's a my possible explanation, this user used something like open-proxy when edited and showed with a block page, then they stopped using them, nothing found from Checkuser and no socks found?
@Doug Weller @Hippobunny123 -Lemonaka 17:43, 7 August 2024 (UTC)- @Lemonaka Good idea, thanks. I see they are editing now. Doug Weller talk 17:53, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Doug Weller It may be related to this user that got blocked from the main space for continuously creating unsourced stub articles. See here. User:Hippobunny123 has been editing similar articles, including Draft:Southern Hoiho which was created by the blocked user. As User:331dot mentioned, is likely a block evasion. DaHuzyBru (talk) 04:24, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- @DaHuzyBru Great catch, thanks. I ran a check and they are the same. @Cullen328: you need to see this. Doug Weller talk 06:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Wow, Doug Weller, are you telling me that somebody that I blocked tried and failed to evade their block? I wonder how often that block evasion has happened in the 21st century? Cullen328 (talk) 07:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Doug Weller It may be related to this user that got blocked from the main space for continuously creating unsourced stub articles. See here. User:Hippobunny123 has been editing similar articles, including Draft:Southern Hoiho which was created by the blocked user. As User:331dot mentioned, is likely a block evasion. DaHuzyBru (talk) 04:24, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Lemonaka Good idea, thanks. I see they are editing now. Doug Weller talk 17:53, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
Block request
Posting here because AIV is currently protected, but DK1964 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is very obviously WP:LTA/D86 continuing to block-evade, see [5], [6], and [7]. Please do not protect that last page (Redacted)2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:641C:8D6D:8AF:85B9 (talk) 15:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- DK1964 has been indeffed by another admin. Johnuniq (talk) 08:42, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Concern regarding the adminship privileges of ScottishFinnishRadish
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello,
I would like to raise a concern regarding the adminship privileges of ScottishFinnishRadish.
Reasons for my concern:
- Premature Adminship Grant: User ScottishFinnishRadish joined Wikipedia in 2021 and gained adminship in 2022. Adminship necessitates not only exceptional editing and involvement but also consistent and sustained contributions over a lengthy period. Granting adminship after just a year of editing is alarmingly premature, as it is insufficient time to fully understand and evaluate an editor's behavior and reliability.
- Edit Count and Quality: As of August 2024, ScottishFinnishRadish has a total edit count of 54,664, however, only 9,865 of these edits are in the mainspace. This indicates that at the time of gaining adminship, they likely had about 4,000 edits on Wikipedia articles. The majority of these edits take place on talk pages in the form of arguments and other behavior that damages the editor retention rate, such as targeting new editors and stretching policy far beyond the means of fair interpretation to dish out an abundance of unwarranted deletions and blocks.
- Harassment and Misconduct: I have personally experienced harassment from ScottishFinnishRadish, who has baselessly wiped my contributions and failed to take simple policy-based actions to peacefully resolve issues. Instead, they have favored arguing and engaging in selective scoping behavior, further contributing to a hostile editing environment.
This user, who was only on Wikipedia for a mere year before being handed the highest privilege a user on this project can receive, is deeply concerning. I am requesting their adminship privileges be reconsidered. I will seek consensus on this if not able to find a resolution here.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Regards, 9t5 (talk) 19:40, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I see no evidence presented(diffs) that supports your claims. As such I'm calling for this to be closed. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:47, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Follow up comment - most recently, after deleting an entire section of an article and citing WP:BLP as the reason, ScottishFinnishRadish spoke to me on my talk page to which I had informed them that according to policy all they needed to do was remove the perps name from the entry on History of violence against LGBT people in the United States. After juveniles reverting of each others edits, they felt the need to start a discussion on the matter at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard and in under 5 minutes, another admin agreed with me that all that needed to be removed was the perps name — and they went ahead and did that. An admin should be aware enough of policy to do that themselves and not need to start a discussion about it. That is concerning. What’s more concerning is that I have now discovered in the wake of that a stretch of edits where SFR was deleting my contributions and citing WP:BLP even when it is absolutely not relevant, like the removal of a file used at Sigma Nu. These are editing flubs based on not understand the policy clearly.. understandable.. forgivable. BUT AN ADMIN??? Why was he given adminship so prematurely? Why is he making amateur mistakes still? I will tell you why it’s because he is still new to Wikipedia. Remove his admin privileges. That’s ridiculous!
- 9t5 (talk) 20:02, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Unless you start providing diffs of this misbehaviour, the only thing that's going to happen is scrutiny of your behaviour. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 20:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- In 9t5's defense, they can't show a lot of diffs because one of the articles they're talking about was deleted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Mateer (musician) - despite the fact that the posted a less-than neutrally worded request at the Article Rescue Squadron (see Special:Diff/1236882976) where they accuse (without evidence) ScottishFinnishRaddish of acting in bad faith, trying to WP:OWN the article, and possibly imply that SFR is trying to delete LGBT history from Wikipedia? I'm a bit unclear on that last point. In 9t5's defense, they did eventually change the tone after a warning.
- Disclaimer: 9t5 and I have interacted once on discord, when I complimented their userpage, and once on Commons, when I nominated one of their files for deletion as a copyright violation- and 9t5 made a comment saying
You must be really proud of the work you do, huh?
(I still stand by my original thought that 9t5 AGF on a dodgy Flickr license)GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 20:24, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- As it happens I spot-checked Sigma Nu and ScottishFinnishRadish did not cite BLP when removing the image, at least not in the edit summary. In the absence of diffs, I agree that this should be closed, and perhaps refiled with more diffs and less impassioned language. Mackensen (talk) 20:13, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- On the topic of Sigma Nu, the person arrested for the assault was not a member of the frat, had been removed from the party by members, and the assault happened outside of the frat's property. Additionally, in one of the sources it states,
The victim called a friend who came to help and he was provided first aid by the Sigma Nu fraternity brothers.
[8] This isn't a controversy involving the frat, and the image adds weight to the false impression that the frat had anything to do with it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:28, 5 August 2024 (UTC) - As far as History of violence against LGBT people in the United States goes, I always start a BLPN thread when I have to make multiple BLP reverts, and as I was on my phone I wasn't able to edit the large section the violating text was in. There are also other BLP concerns in the article, which is why I requested additional eyes. I also started a discussion on the article talk page. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:31, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Unless you start providing diffs of this misbehaviour, the only thing that's going to happen is scrutiny of your behaviour. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 20:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- SFR gained the admin tools after a request for adminship; that is, via community consensus. The only body that can remove his access to the tools is the arbitration committee. If you have genuine evidence of misconduct, that is the place to go (I do not recommend this: you seem to have no evidence at all). If you take issue with a specific admin action, you need to explain what, and why. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:21, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Another follow up - I am DISTURBED. I have only now just realized that after engaging in an AfD discussion with @ScottishFinnishRadish where I cited my 87% live rate for my edits on Wikipedia, my live rate —- in two weeks time — has plummeted to 50%. Meaning my contributions to this project were targeted by an admin simply. because I had the audacity to call them out for not following policy. I am disturbed, upset and hurt by this. All the while.. this “admin” that was given this privilege so incredibly prematurely touts themself as an advocate for editor retention. How? By targeting new editors? Hurting their contributions because their ego is hurt? Not only does it make me fear for this project, it makes me fear for the prestige of adminship. What a joke.
- 9t5 (talk) 20:42, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- "When the facts and the case are against you, pound on the table." Are you just here to pick fights in a contentious topic area? —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 20:44, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
Why was the discussion archived after only two hours?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is what happens when you put adminship in the hands of narcissistic amateurs. Need I remind you that the media reads these editor discussions as the information on this encyclopedia serves as the source of foundational information in global databases. The issue is far from one that can be brushed off like that, and while I am respectfully going to end the arguing now, I ask you to question why you all just went crazy on me, because that is seldom the behavior of the innocent. Talk:Sigma Nu#Admin acting like a child
Good night. 9t5 (talk) 23:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- If you're referring to the ScottishFinnishRadish complaint, I agree. The prior discussion was archived far too early, which prevented us from discussing the appropriate WP:BOOMERANG sanctions against you. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 23:08, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- i point the participants on this noticeboard to the recent addition 9t5 has made to their userpage. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 23:14, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- They made a similiar accusation in Special:Diff/1238830998 to Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Premature adminship; as the discussion had already been closed by @HouseBlaster(courtesy ping as MFD closer)thisq addition should not have been made and I would like to invite @9t5 to self-revert before somebody else does it for them.
- I'm making a similiar courtesy ping to @Black Kite as the closer of the prev. AN report. (And thank you for trying to head this off early before anybody could dig themselves further into any holes. Regrettably, hints were not taken). GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 23:24, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I probably should have noted in the closure that it was procedural only; Fastily had already CSD'd it. I have amended my closure to reflect that. HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 23:27, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Between the personal attacks, the likely undisclosed use of LLM output, and the lack of awareness of BLP policy, some block of 9t5 is called for. Walsh90210 (talk) 23:34, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- regarding LLM usage - see Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Premature adminship, and their two other essays which seem to also be LLM-generated, Wikipedia:The Importance of Creative Contests for Community Engagement on Wikipedia and Wikipedia:Herd mentality (this one seems like it's only partially LLM). their opening comment in the initial thread above this seems like it's LLM-generated as well. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 23:43, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- To be fair, while the deleted essay was obviously LLM and detected as 100% AI by (ironically) LLM-text-detecting AIs, their opening post in the report does not read like something that guaranteed had heavy use of AI, and QuillBot thinks only part of Edit Count and Quality and the whole of Harassment and Misconduct is AI generated.
- The Harassment and Misconduct one is the only one I would think was for sure written mostly by them, because it's clearly the reason they made all of this, so I don't agree with QuillBot either...
- Breaking WP:AGF policies and throwing around accusations without any evidence against admins and users disagreeing with them is clearly a self-fulfilling prophecy on getting admin actions imposed against them though. – 2804:F1...D5:33ED (talk) 00:01, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- LLM detectors are very unreliable. their noticeboard comments definitely could be their own stilted writing; it just struck me as oddly-written and in the context of their obvious LLM usage elsewhere, seemed plausible to me. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 00:11, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Second this. The Kip (contribs) 23:55, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- regarding LLM usage - see Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Premature adminship, and their two other essays which seem to also be LLM-generated, Wikipedia:The Importance of Creative Contests for Community Engagement on Wikipedia and Wikipedia:Herd mentality (this one seems like it's only partially LLM). their opening comment in the initial thread above this seems like it's LLM-generated as well. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 23:43, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- We all know that some media read talk pages but what on earth does "encyclopedia serves as the source of foundational information in global databases" mean? I'm going to assume you wrote this rather than used an LLM to come up with meaningless nonsense, so please explain. Yes Wikipedia is way too often used by other sources as the sole source of information without even checking our cites which they then repeat, I mean we even have the well documented problem of WP:CITOGENESIS because of that, but it's not even close to whatever "source of foundational information in global databases" means. Nil Einne (talk) 23:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've blocked 48 hours as a minimum for the repeated personal attacks towards SFR. Galobtter (talk) 23:59, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I considered indefinitely blocking 9t5 for disruptive editing four hours ago, but I am travelling today and didn’t want to ‘block and run’. The conduct in the intervening period has done little to change my opinion on this being the best course of action. I would support increasing the 48 hour block to indefinite. Daniel (talk) 00:28, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I would still support an indef. HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 01:23, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah I was thinking of a longer block and based on the conduct here an indef seems fine but needed more time than I had to look into it. Galobtter (talk) 16:52, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I considered indefinitely blocking 9t5 for disruptive editing four hours ago, but I am travelling today and didn’t want to ‘block and run’. The conduct in the intervening period has done little to change my opinion on this being the best course of action. I would support increasing the 48 hour block to indefinite. Daniel (talk) 00:28, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support indef for PAs and poor trolling. Star Mississippi 03:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I won't since I've !Voted here but suggest someone yank TPA if & when this block is extended. Star Mississippi 02:12, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support indef block/community ban - This is verging on harassment mixed with competence issues, either of which are grounds for an indef by themselves. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 05:41, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support The behavior here was so far beyond the pale that a 48-hour block is insufficient to prevent damage to the encyclopedia. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 08:44, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Galobbter beat me to a short term block, but I do think something longer is needed. This is a good case of "indefinite does not mean infinite"; as best as I can tell this user has done useful work before. But they have utterly lost perspective here, and don't seem to believe they could be doing anything wrong or that criticism of their work could be anything other than harassment and/or prejudice against queer users and topics. They need to recalibrate, and perhaps with a timeout they will do so. Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:06, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support indef in light of the battleground mentality displayed on the editor's talk page. Those are not the words of someone who will work productively with others. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:39, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support indef Its clear they have become a timesink and need some enforced time away. The vendetta against SFR and the battleground mentality shown in their recent edits has now become purely disruptive. Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- adding a formal support indef based on their talk page comments today. they have refused to put the shovel down and instead continued to make baseless claims about sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry from SFR, which as others have said really indicates a battleground and uncollegial attitude. i don't think there's any place for this uncivil behavior here and i hope 9t5 will do some self-reflection. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 00:35, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- has anyone else got an email from 9t5? ltbdl☃ (talk) 05:02, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support indef block/community ban As the saying goes, enough is enough. Timewaster, continued personal attacks even after their block, I see no evidence their behaviour will change. Doug Weller talk 13:10, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. Over email, 9t5 acknowledged that the
narcissistic amateurs
remark was a personal attack. 9t5 didn't request that I post this, and I wouldn't action any request from a blocked editor. The dispute continues in my inbox. 9t5 is claiming that they are being harassed. Per Wikipedia:Harassment#Private correspondence, I won't publish the emails. Instead forwarded them to ArbCom (as advised in the footer of the email) for them to review the content as I'm uncertain what to do, but I made it clear that I'm not filing an ArbCom case over it. Svampesky (talk) 14:25, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
9t5 ban from using LLM for writing
In addition to the above instances of LLM use, I will also add that they added a plaintext list of 34(!) sources to the middle of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Mateer (musician), claiming that it was a plaintext image they found online. Besides the absurdity of asking other AfD participants to ask them to wade through 34 sources – none of which even had a convenience link – I have a very hard time believing that a random website happened to have a plaintext list of GNG-eligible sources just lying around. In fact, this google search for just one of the citations only turns up copies of the AfD discussion. I suspect that this was another instance of asking a LLM to do their dirty work for them.
Wasting the community's time with LLM complaints and starting RfCs with a snowball's chance in hell of success without even a hint of WP:RFCBEFORE is disruptive, so I am proposing an indefinite ban from using LLM content anywhere on Wikipedia, appealable after six months and every six months thereafter. HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 00:05, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- No. This is too soft. I propose a community ban for 9t5 for competence issues and (attempted) harassment of ScottishFinnishRadish. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 00:33, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think a cban is probably a bridge too far at this point. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- yeah, i think we can give it a bit to see what their response to this discussion is. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 00:42, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think a cban is probably a bridge too far at this point. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- support and i'd support an indef block. this stuff really needs a legit explanation. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 00:33, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure it's LLM generated, their post to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Mateer (musician)[9] is basically the same list they posted to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Thomas Mateer two year ago[10]. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 00:44, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support, and I similarly wouldn't be opposed to an indef. The Kip (contribs) 00:59, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- This doesn't seem like the right solution. The LLM usage is a symptom, not the cause of the problems. If 9t5 cannot understand the problems with their editing, a full block (at least 1 month, and possibly indefinite) is necessary. Walsh90210 (talk) 01:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hence why I support a full siteban. Banning the use of LLM is missing the forest for the trees when it's clear he's tilting at SFR. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 05:33, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Comment It seems unfair to allow a consensus to be established while the essay in question is deleted from view. Perhaps it should be restored temporarily to allow for editors to make a proper judgement for a consensus to be reached, and then deleted again afterward. Svampesky (talk) 01:05, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fair enough. Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion#Wikipedia:Premature adminship filed. (I am not doing so myself per WP:INVOLVED.) HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 01:17, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- And it has been undeleted. HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 01:59, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- That had the side-effect of restoring the RFC in the talk page, which Legobot has now listed elsewhere... – 2804:F1...D5:33ED (talk) 02:03, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Removed the RfC tag. HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 02:04, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- And the Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Premature adminship was reopened again, and I quick-closed it as delete per WP:SNOW, not being aware of why it had been resurrected (the only explanation given in the discussion was "multiple objections to the speedy"). But now that I've realized people need to be able to read it in order to form an opinion concerning this discussion, I suppose somebody uninvolved had better request undeletion again..? Sorry. (My excuse is that it did snow.) Bishonen | tålk 19:27, 6 August 2024 (UTC).
- Notification that the page has been restored and the MfD discussion has been reopened. Svampesky (talk) 20:17, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- And the Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Premature adminship was reopened again, and I quick-closed it as delete per WP:SNOW, not being aware of why it had been resurrected (the only explanation given in the discussion was "multiple objections to the speedy"). But now that I've realized people need to be able to read it in order to form an opinion concerning this discussion, I suppose somebody uninvolved had better request undeletion again..? Sorry. (My excuse is that it did snow.) Bishonen | tålk 19:27, 6 August 2024 (UTC).
- Removed the RfC tag. HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 02:04, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- That had the side-effect of restoring the RFC in the talk page, which Legobot has now listed elsewhere... – 2804:F1...D5:33ED (talk) 02:03, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- And it has been undeleted. HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 01:59, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fair enough. Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion#Wikipedia:Premature adminship filed. (I am not doing so myself per WP:INVOLVED.) HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 01:17, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support and indefinite block or a site ban. They completely lack the introspection or the maturity to even edit here. Scorpions1325 (talk) 01:39, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support but it's insufficient as the proper remedy here is an indef.⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 01:56, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support this as well. If we accept for the sake of argument than an LLC can be used constructively, it's patently clear that this editor does not have the ability to do so. This is not instead of an indef, but just to be in place for if the indef is not supported by consensus or if this editor is unblocked after an indef. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 08:50, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support an indef or similar. This user should take the time to consider their actions and the community's reaction to such and learn from their mistakes. - UtherSRG (talk) 11:52, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support indef block for repeated harassment and LLM misuse verging on WP:CIR. A community ban is a little too far, but a ban on LLM use doesn't solve the underlying issue of harassing SFR. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 16:08, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support indef due to continuous harrassment of SFR. I've seen the work he's done, and I could tell he was experienced enough to receive the mop. Harassing someone over receiving adminship after a year is too childish and immature, and SFR definitely knows what he's doing. NoobThreePointOh (talk) 16:47, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support LLM ban This is a minor measure and an easy decision. Not sure what I think about an indef, make sure we don't hyperventilate. For a newer editor, under our system, indef means never can come back. Maybe 3 months to think about it? North8000 (talk) 19:14, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support indef block per above. More than enough community time has been wasted on this individual's tantrums and disruptive behavior. -Fastily 01:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I'm not going to pile on- but whatever sanctions applied should apply to User:SigmaEmpath, 9t5's possible(?) alt, as well. I haven't seen any evidence of them using the account illegitimately, but you have to dig a bit to find it and it's probably best if we don't leave any temptation. And if it isn't their alt, then it should be blocked for impersonation. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 01:40, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- It is their alt; 4theloveofallthings was renamed to 9t5. HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 02:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose an LLM ban, because it is extremely difficult if not impossible to know whether bad writing is done by a Large language model or by a human who writes badly. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:27, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - I wonder whether the support for an LLM ban is a search for some sanction short of a site ban for an editor who needs some sanction. I just don't think that an LLM ban is the answer. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:27, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
Talk page access
Would an uninvolved admin be able to pull TPA? (For the remainder of the current block.) They are currently posting a "timeline" and other screeds. Yes, I am doing that thing where I create a new section for my own Very Important Comment. But I do feel like this is a separate thing which belongs in a different section. HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 04:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- And as I was writing this, they posted the {{admin help}} template. Sigh. HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 04:13, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have revoked it now. —Ingenuity (t • c) 04:16, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks @Doug Weller for yanking TPA. @Ingenuity I see from your note below it was intentional not to, but I think you'll find it clear that the same disruption wasn't stopping. They're welcome to file their ArbComm case via email. Star Mississippi 11:59, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Given the rant they just posted, I think revoking TPA was very much warranted. —Ingenuity (t • c) 13:43, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- In this latest rant, 9t5 did not publish email #2 in full, so I believe misrepresents my reply on their talk page. I've already forwarded the emails to ArbCom in case this needs to be proved. Svampesky (talk) 15:06, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Given the rant they just posted, I think revoking TPA was very much warranted. —Ingenuity (t • c) 13:43, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
EmailUser access
I'm uncertain whether I can publish emails. Could ArbCom review the email I just forwarded (subject: 'Personal attack from 9t5 to Svampesky') containing the personal attack and make a decision on EmailUser access? To make it clear, I'm not suggesting filing an ArbCom case over this, I'm following the advice in the footer of the email. Svampesky (talk) 15:01, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Emailing ArbCom about email attacks is definitely fine to do. @Ingenuity: it seems like you have set the block to be email disabled but talk page enabled, was that intentional? Galobtter (talk) 18:45, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- It was intentional, but I'm still debating whether I should've just left it turned off. If they continue using it for ranting like they were earlier, I won't hesitate to re-revoke it. —Ingenuity (t • c) 18:51, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- It continues over on Commons, I was tagged in this: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:This_Is_Called_Emotional_Abuse.jpg Out of the five emails I recieved from them, they published #1 and #3. My comment at 06:11 UTC here was in reply to email #2 (recieved at 05:58 UTC), an email which wasn't published. I understand that this file is outside the scope of the Wikipedia Administrators' noticeboard; but I'm just making a note of it here and will be ignoring it going forward. Here are the timestamps for the record: 1. 04:49 (UTC), 2. 05:58 (UTC), 3. 06:18 (UTC), 4. 06:37 (UTC), 5. 14:43 (UTC) Svampesky (talk) 19:01, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's now starting to work it's way into a global block, seeing as it's cross-wiki harassment. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- The file was deleted by AntiCompositeNumber. If a global block a consensus-based decision, could I request that this file be temporarily restored, until the discussion is closed, so that those involved can see the extent of the nonsense? Svampesky (talk) 19:52, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Global blocks and locks are handled by individual stewards (like me), who have the ability to see deleted content on all wikis. I don't generally lock accounts for problems on two wikis, but if the cross-wiki harassment continues to another wiki a global block or lock is likely. AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 19:54, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- They seem to have joined eswiki and ruwiki this morning. I don't think the Commons block is the end of this. Svampesky (talk) 20:09, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- User:AntiCompositeNumber - What is the difference between a global lock of an account and a global block of an account? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:11, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- not ACN (or a steward) (or qualified to be answering this question whatsoever) a global lock completely locks the user out of their account (to where they cannot log in), whereas a global block just shows the standard "you have been blocked" message when they try to edit a page. Accounts have only been gblockable for a few weeks (although IPs have always been gblocked) and I have never seen a gblocked account (I think it's intended for when IP masking/temporary accounts become a thing). Queen of Hearts talk 06:24, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- User:AntiCompositeNumber - What is the difference between a global lock of an account and a global block of an account? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:11, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- They seem to have joined eswiki and ruwiki this morning. I don't think the Commons block is the end of this. Svampesky (talk) 20:09, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Global blocks and locks are handled by individual stewards (like me), who have the ability to see deleted content on all wikis. I don't generally lock accounts for problems on two wikis, but if the cross-wiki harassment continues to another wiki a global block or lock is likely. AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 19:54, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- The file was deleted by AntiCompositeNumber. If a global block a consensus-based decision, could I request that this file be temporarily restored, until the discussion is closed, so that those involved can see the extent of the nonsense? Svampesky (talk) 19:52, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's now starting to work it's way into a global block, seeing as it's cross-wiki harassment. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Ingenuity Your block notice says "Your ability to edit this talk page has been revoked as an administrator has identified your talk page edits as inappropriate and/or disruptive." So I assumed you meant to revoke TPA and in any case it seemed appropriate to revoke it. User:Yamla turned down a UTRS request saying "s declined. User is not permitted to contest this block/community ban until six months have passed". Doug Weller talk 12:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- It continues over on Commons, I was tagged in this: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:This_Is_Called_Emotional_Abuse.jpg Out of the five emails I recieved from them, they published #1 and #3. My comment at 06:11 UTC here was in reply to email #2 (recieved at 05:58 UTC), an email which wasn't published. I understand that this file is outside the scope of the Wikipedia Administrators' noticeboard; but I'm just making a note of it here and will be ignoring it going forward. Here are the timestamps for the record: 1. 04:49 (UTC), 2. 05:58 (UTC), 3. 06:18 (UTC), 4. 06:37 (UTC), 5. 14:43 (UTC) Svampesky (talk) 19:01, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- It was intentional, but I'm still debating whether I should've just left it turned off. If they continue using it for ranting like they were earlier, I won't hesitate to re-revoke it. —Ingenuity (t • c) 18:51, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
It continues on other wikis
9t5 has taken this to other wikis. They have posted the same message to their user pages:
- https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/User:9t5
- https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/User:9t5
- https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usuario:9t5
- https://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:9t5
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:9t5
There isn't more to say, but I had to put a text under the above list, as my signature rendered into a code box. Svampesky (talk) 15:39, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure if a request has been made at Meta, but this definitely is enough cross-wiki harassment to warrant a global lock of the account. RickinBaltimore (talk) 15:59, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- I haven't made any request (and I'm not even sure how I would). I wouldn't be against such a request if it helps prevent them from continuing to make an example of themselves. I also want to clarify that I don't believe my !votes in the various deletion discussions were influenced by the situation. I believe I would have !voted the same way regardless of circumstances. Svampesky (talk) 16:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've made the request now. RickinBaltimore (talk) 16:14, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- I actually had this idea in my notes to take to village pump as I couldn't find it anywhere, but it turns out it already exists. On Meta, there is a link to 9t5's global contributions. It seems they have requested help from the Association of Inclusionist Wikipedians. Svampesky (talk) 16:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done by EPIC. Queen of Hearts (talk) 18:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've made the request now. RickinBaltimore (talk) 16:14, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- I haven't made any request (and I'm not even sure how I would). I wouldn't be against such a request if it helps prevent them from continuing to make an example of themselves. I also want to clarify that I don't believe my !votes in the various deletion discussions were influenced by the situation. I believe I would have !voted the same way regardless of circumstances. Svampesky (talk) 16:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- It becomes a code block if there's a space at the beginning of a new line. Queen of Hearts (talk) 18:06, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
User:Kierandude
- Kierandude (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Perhaps an admin could take a look at this user's contributions? Everthing they've uploaded and created seem to be associated to some kind of "fan fiction" they're working on. This could be a WP:YOUNG user who's just not aware of WP:NOT, which is why I'm asking about this here instead of WP:ANI. -- Marchjuly (talk) 20:43, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yikes. This looks like a walled fictional garden. Acroterion (talk) 20:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- They've even created a category for their fiction. Category:Fiction_by_Kierandude (swiftly deleted) Schazjmd (talk) 20:57, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- They're making some edits that seem OK, but then are also creating pages like User:Kierandude/When an AI writes Wikipedia, User:Kierandude/Soulhouse Your In Bird, User:Kierandude/Ruin This Page, User:Kierandude/Catulia, Template:Not actually fair use and Template:Kierandude. They seem to have made the "Not actually fair use" template just so that they could post it on my user talk page. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:11, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- User:Kierandude/Soulhouse Your In Bird are mangled lyrics of Birdhouse in Your Soul. So mangled that I don't even know if they're a copyvio anymore. —Cryptic 22:55, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've got no idea what the point of User:Kierandude/Ignore all rules is supposed to be. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:12, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Neither do I, but I don't see a reason for any other actions right now. It would be nice if they were a little more responsive though. Acroterion (talk) 15:42, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Acroterion: I understand and thank you for what've you done so far. This probably can be closed now (I guess) since several administrators seem to be monitoring the situation and Kierandude has been advised how to best move forward on their user talk page. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:44, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Neither do I, but I don't see a reason for any other actions right now. It would be nice if they were a little more responsive though. Acroterion (talk) 15:42, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've got no idea what the point of User:Kierandude/Ignore all rules is supposed to be. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:12, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- User:Kierandude/Soulhouse Your In Bird are mangled lyrics of Birdhouse in Your Soul. So mangled that I don't even know if they're a copyvio anymore. —Cryptic 22:55, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- They're making some edits that seem OK, but then are also creating pages like User:Kierandude/When an AI writes Wikipedia, User:Kierandude/Soulhouse Your In Bird, User:Kierandude/Ruin This Page, User:Kierandude/Catulia, Template:Not actually fair use and Template:Kierandude. They seem to have made the "Not actually fair use" template just so that they could post it on my user talk page. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:11, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- They've even created a category for their fiction. Category:Fiction_by_Kierandude (swiftly deleted) Schazjmd (talk) 20:57, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
I've just come across some edits by this editor and looking back on their edits immediately issued them with a DS template for gender issues. But looking further back, these are some of their edits for the last two weeks.
- added a POV tag to LGBT rights in India without a note on the talk page [11]
- PRODded the well-sourced Chennai Rainbow Pride [12] (I removed the PROD)
- PRODded a reasonably well-sourced article (Padmini Prakash) on a transgender journalist [13]
- PRODded another article (Gazal Dhaliwal, needed some more sources, but wasn't a PROD candidate) on a transgender film-maker [14]
- Some terrible AfD nominations of women
- A female scientist (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shipra Guha-Mukherjee)
- A female Member of Parliament who is immediately notable (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anis Kidwai)
- Another one of a female (surprise!) stuntwoman (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reshma Pathan)
- And another one of a burlesque artist (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sukki Singapora)
Clearly the editor can't be trusted with editing such articles, so I am wondering what the best course of action is. Black Kite (talk) 13:08, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, this and this also don't leave a good impression. Nobody (talk) 13:36, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Issue a warning/continue discussion I think this is more of a misreading of intent.
- POV tag on LGBT rights in India: Even a cursory glance through the page leads me to think it reads as an advocacy piece. I think a POV tag is reasonably appropriate and certainly within debate.
- PRODded Chennai Rainbow Pride: I think that it could be better sourced. WP:N and WP:RS are minimally met
- PRODded Padmini Prakash: I think that it could be better sourced. WP:N and WP:RS are minimally met
- PRODded Gazal Dhaliwal: It needed more sources and they were added. The process worked
- "Some terrible AfD nominations of women" - There were other articles too...it wasn't just women. At least one was reasonable. The others...I mean, WP:BITE seems a reasonable guideline. Let's go ahead and issue a formal warning that they need to take a little more time to understand policies. Given the familiarity with WP policies, I think an SPI might be in order. Buffs (talk) 15:29, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure that WP:BITE doesn't apply to an editor who has been here more than two years and has over 3,000 edits. Black Kite (talk) 15:52, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Just a note that this editor is very active tagging articles for PRODs and AFDs, usually offering only very brief deletion rationales. Despite this, many have been successful. Liz Read! Talk! 20:50, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Are they incorrect? If not, sounds like a net benefit. Buffs (talk) 15:04, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- All the ones I mentioned above were incorrect. However, since the editor hasn't done anything like that since, we can probably close this until such time that they do. Black Kite (talk) 12:15, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Just a note that this editor is very active tagging articles for PRODs and AFDs, usually offering only very brief deletion rationales. Despite this, many have been successful. Liz Read! Talk! 20:50, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
User:Kingsif
The user is reverting edits and imposing their own opinions on the article 'List of footballers who achieved hat-trick records'. This is the second time I have entered into an argument with them on the same article. The first time, he accused me of sexism just because I put a (Women) label next to each woman on the list. I ended the argument the first time because I don't like getting into too many problems. This time, he is trying to revert my edit despite me explaining the reason. I request the administrators to put a stop to this. Mishary94 (talk) 23:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- The first time, we had a discussion, and I did not accuse you of sexism - I said using only women as a defining category but not men, youth, amateur, could be read as sexism. This time, I have given you like three reasons why your explanations do not justify your edits. I have participated in discussion and it is a radical acceleration to come to ANI instead of just replying to me at the relevant talkpage. Especially when if you want to change the definition of a header, that's something that warrant discussion before making changes. But you made it, I reverted it with reasons, and am participating in discussion - see WP:BRD. Coming to ANI because you don't like that your edit and explanation wasn't just accepted is out of line. Kingsif (talk) 23:12, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Mishary, you need to understand that if a revert happens, you need to discuss why it happened. Usually the edit summary provides enough reason, but the talk page exists too. Also, if Kingsif is reverting you while you aren't discussing, you risk an edit war, plus disruption, making this a WP:BOOMERANG. Conyo14 (talk) 06:01, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have also found Kingsif's recent edit behavior battleground in nature. During a recent RFC, Kingsif accused others of harassment[15], bludgeoning[16] and being sockpuppet[17]. These accusations were all without merit. During this strange episode Kingsif even went so far as to template me for harrassment.[18] It's difficult to review that in context and draw any other conclusion than the editor is making baseless accusations that are battleground in nature. That aside, this is an experienced editor who is an overall a positive contributor to the project. Perhaps a polite WP:TROUT is in order to work better with other editors. Nemov (talk) 18:30, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Arbitration motions regarding My very best wishes
The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:
Remedies 5.1 and 5.2 of World War II and the history of Jews in Poland (the topic and interaction bans on My very best wishes, respectively) are repealed.
And it has resolved by another motion that:
My very best wishes' topic ban from World War II in Eastern Europe and the history of Jews in Eastern Europe, imposed under the Eastern Europe contentious topic procedures, is repealed.
For the Arbitration Committee, SilverLocust 💬 06:33, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § Arbitration motions regarding My very best wishes
Rollback abuse by User:Jasper Deng
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This user misuses MediaWiki rollback by using it to make unexplained/vague/disruptive reversions of good-faith edits as he did in Magnetic field. Jeaucques Quœure (talk) 07:35, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nope. This is WP:Twinkle, not WP:Rollback. You also ought to have discussed it with me on my talk page before trying to raise it here, and when you did, you failed to notify me as clearly required by procedure.--Jasper Deng (talk) 07:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Your userpage says the otherwise. Jeaucques Quœure (talk) 07:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Just because an editor can use Rollback, doesn't mean that they used it for a particular edit.Nigel Ish (talk) 07:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Anyway, he is abusing his rights. Jeaucques Quœure (talk) 08:33, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- You are wrongly assuming I used them here in the first place. Since it seems like I wasn't clear the first time, let me be a bit more blunt: if you do not drop this frivolous complaint, you are in for a WP:BOOMERANG especially in light of your earlier and now-continuing WP:IDHT behavior.--Jasper Deng (talk) 08:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- To remind you my behavior was a case of WP:Edit warring not WP:IDHT. Also, I have already apologized in my talk page for the same. Now better not try to change the subject Jeaucques Quœure (talk) 09:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- You did engage in IDHT behavior in response to my edit warring warning and are now engaging in it again here. The time to drop this WP:STICK was as soon as it was explained to you that I didn't use rollback in this instance. Drop it now. Otherwise this conversation will indeed become a WP:BOOMERANG and be about you and your (in addition to WP:IDHT) childish behavior (examples: unhelpful; "better not try to change the subject").--Jasper Deng (talk) 09:09, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- How? Jeaucques Quœure (talk) 09:33, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Look at the length of this conversation and the one at User talk:Jeaucques Quœure#August 2024 and how resistant you are in both cases to what you are being told.--Jasper Deng (talk) 09:35, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Smh I asked you how to drop the WP:STICK? Jeaucques Quœure (talk) 09:41, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Please read the essay, and just stop commenting here.--Jasper Deng (talk) 09:45, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Smh I asked you how to drop the WP:STICK? Jeaucques Quœure (talk) 09:41, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Look at the length of this conversation and the one at User talk:Jeaucques Quœure#August 2024 and how resistant you are in both cases to what you are being told.--Jasper Deng (talk) 09:35, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- How? Jeaucques Quœure (talk) 09:33, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- You did engage in IDHT behavior in response to my edit warring warning and are now engaging in it again here. The time to drop this WP:STICK was as soon as it was explained to you that I didn't use rollback in this instance. Drop it now. Otherwise this conversation will indeed become a WP:BOOMERANG and be about you and your (in addition to WP:IDHT) childish behavior (examples: unhelpful; "better not try to change the subject").--Jasper Deng (talk) 09:09, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- To remind you my behavior was a case of WP:Edit warring not WP:IDHT. Also, I have already apologized in my talk page for the same. Now better not try to change the subject Jeaucques Quœure (talk) 09:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- The edits at Magnetic field show that Jasper Deng did a single revert with a comprehensive edit summary. That is model editing, not abuse. See WP:ROLLBACK for the details; an edit using rollback is tagged in the page history. Please discuss article content at the article's talk page and bear in mind that many edits are reverted: it's part of life here. Johnuniq (talk) 08:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Could you explain what was comprehensive about that edit summary?
- Disregarding the diagrams.
- Labelling vector equations are "useless".
- Jeaucques Quœure (talk) 09:07, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- There is no violation of rollback, and this does not belong on AN. If you don't understand Jasper Deng's explanation of his edit then ask hm for clarification on the article's talk page or his user page, not here. Meters (talk) 09:13, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Could you explain what was comprehensive about that edit summary?
- You are wrongly assuming I used them here in the first place. Since it seems like I wasn't clear the first time, let me be a bit more blunt: if you do not drop this frivolous complaint, you are in for a WP:BOOMERANG especially in light of your earlier and now-continuing WP:IDHT behavior.--Jasper Deng (talk) 08:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Anyway, he is abusing his rights. Jeaucques Quœure (talk) 08:33, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Just because an editor can use Rollback, doesn't mean that they used it for a particular edit.Nigel Ish (talk) 07:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Your userpage says the otherwise. Jeaucques Quœure (talk) 07:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Meatpuppetry by User:ImperialAficionado
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I found a meatpuppet of a user who is pushing Muslim POV everywhere
Various Edits of Kemiliogolgi and imperialaficionado overlap, for example [19][20] here here too
- Both of them arguing to keep this page Maratha-Nizam wars
- Both of them editing same page [21]
- Imperialaficionado and Kemiliogolgi reverting Sudsahab's edit on same page [22] [23] And warring with R2dra here [24] [25]
- Imperialaficionado editing pages created by Kemiliogolgi [26]
- Imperial reaches on pages to support kemilliogolgi without invitations [27] [28]
- see here kemiliogolgi and imperial are trying to target marathas in these edits [29]
- All of Imperialaficionado's edits push muslim pov example see this edit summary [30], imperial uses a word "Maksad" which in used insense of Jihad agaist hindus.
- literally check the articles created by Kemilliogolgi [31] all of these are battle pages with a muslim victory and same goes to imperialaficionado's articles created [32]
I guess these proofs must be enough to prove Imperialaficionado as a sock/meatpuppet of kemiliogolgi Raged Pratihar (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I reverted the OP's attempt to post this at SPI. See also Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/R2dra.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:15, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Raged Pratihar, you are the same editor who told another editor in an AFD discussion to "stop pushing muslim pov" which is a personal attack and you repeat that charge here. I guess my User talk page warning had no effect. Would you retract these accusations? Liz Read! Talk! 06:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
User:CNMall41
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- CNMall41 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user suddenly start targeting my created articles and put them into a Afd, i don't know why ? as a woman i am feeling harrassed. that's why i'm reporting here, Please do something. Xegma(talk) 05:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping. Can you specify which "articles" I "target[ed]?" As far as the accusation of sexism, I hope you have evidence of that as such an accusation is not appropriate without such. --CNMall41 (talk) 05:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- You know very well which 2 articles i am talking about and you put them into Afd, and i have also checked you edited all my created articles on last 3 days. Now I am asking Why ? you put them into Afd and can you not tag that 2 articles with "More citation needed" or "Notability guidelines" tages and let me improve those articles. and that's why i am feeling harrassed and also disappointed. :( Xegma(talk) 06:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- You could have improved them with more citations before creating them but here we are. I would suggest a look at WP:CIVIL and would also like a response to your sexism accusation prior to me requesting a WP:BOOMERANG at WP:ANI. I have no issues discussing something if you feel wronged, but throwing around such as strong accusation is not something that is acceptable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CNMall41 (talk • contribs)
You know very well which 2 articles i am talking about
. The rest of us do not. Please feel free to link them. And I agree that accusing someone of sexism without evidence is inappropriate. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:30, 9 August 2024 (UTC)- @Novem Linguae: That time i have said it on "Anger" and I am very very sorry for that and apologising for it.
- But i am still disappoint for this two [33] and [34] Afds, this could have tagged and let me improve those articles. Xegma(talk) 11:51, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the apology.
- When done properly, AFD does not evaluate the current state of the article. Rather, it evaluates the existence of sources. Because notability is about the existence of sources, rather than the current state of the article, an article can be nominated for AFD at any time.
- The best thing you can do at this point is to google search for high quality sources that meet our WP:GNG or WP:NSONG guidelines, and add those to the article or the AFDs, in case they were overlooked by the people who created the AFDs.
- Sadly, whether or not sources can contribute to notability can be hard for a newer editor to correctly judge. I talk about it a bit in my essay User:Novem Linguae/Essays/Thoughts on notability and AFD. Hope this helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- "But i am still disappoint for this" - is a non-apology apology. Maybe it is a language barrier, but you made a strong PERSONAL allegation which does not sit well with me. You insinuated that 1) I am likely a man 2)I singled you out for being a woman 3)I stalked your edits because you were a woman 4)I harassed you because you were a woman. So again, please provide evidence that this is what happened and stop playing the victim because you are upset about AfD.--CNMall41 (talk) 19:47, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- You know very well which 2 articles i am talking about and you put them into Afd, and i have also checked you edited all my created articles on last 3 days. Now I am asking Why ? you put them into Afd and can you not tag that 2 articles with "More citation needed" or "Notability guidelines" tages and let me improve those articles. and that's why i am feeling harrassed and also disappointed. :( Xegma(talk) 06:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- If you want any filing here to be taken seriously, you have to substantiate accusations that you make. You haven't supplied a single diff that supports these accusations or even indicates a problem. This is not a place to book fishing expeditions. Having two articles covering subjects of very marginal notability being nominated for deletion does not remotely constitute harassment. Hopefully you have a lot more than this; there is no immunity for making vexatious filings. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 07:34, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have had a chance to review the complaint and all the edits associated with it (disappointingly, these weren't presented as diffs by the complainant, so I reviewed them indepenently). My summary below:
- CNMall41 nominated two articles for deletion. Both were nominations in good faith, and could concievably result in deletion or draftifying. There is nothing inherently "harassing" about nominating two articles from the one editor, absent evidence of bad faith or a distinct pattern.
- The complainant referencing their gender, and saying "as a woman i am feeling harrassed", actually undermines all the genuine harassment that editors of all genders sometimes suffer, but disproportionately at times female and non-binary editors. The edits by CNMall41 were not only not harassment, but were absolutely not gender-based harassment as alleged by the complainant, from the evidence I can see and the statements above.
- Accusing another editor of gender-based harassment with no evidence is a vile personal attack, and the complainant would do well to formally withdraw and/or strike it without condition to avoid a sanction themselves.
- I find no actions of improprietry at all from CNMall41 relating to this incident from reviewing contributions and the above statements.
- The only person who should be sanctioned out of this complaint is the original complainant, Xegma — pending whether they unconditionally withdraw the personal attack on CNMall41 or not, this could be either a reminder or a strong warning. Daniel (talk) 00:53, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I am very very sorry and still apologising to everyone for my behaviour and I am withdrawing it. And it will not happen again on future. Xegma(talk) 04:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have had a chance to review the complaint and all the edits associated with it (disappointingly, these weren't presented as diffs by the complainant, so I reviewed them indepenently). My summary below:
Haven't been for a couple days and see this thread went slightly in the wrong direction. To be clear, I would opposed any type of boomerang at this point. I think the most would be a side serving of TROUT. It was a personal attack as the OP could have stated they felt harassed. But, when they bring sex into it, it insinuates that I am sexist. Intentional or not, it was inappropriate. I would say since the post is about my actions, if there are no sanctions that will be applied against me, we could close this out without any action against OP. I do have some concerns with their editing but that can be addressed in other forums and not on this thread. --CNMall41 (talk) 18:38, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Boomerang for Xegma
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I've seen people pretend to be female to garner community support by falsely accusing other editors with whom they have disputes. I strongly feel Xegma should face sanctions for filing a baseless report, which is nothing more than an attempt to undermine and slander CNMall41 who's diligently working to keep Wikipedia free from UPE. I propose a t/ban for Xegma, who predominantly edits articles related to Indian films/TV series and actors, an area which is rife with WP:UPE and sock farms. I get that attacks like these are part and parcel of NPP and dealing with UPEs and I’ve been dealing with this myself for months. But honestly, it feels like these issues are only going to get worse. We should brace ourselves because it’s frustrating to see no end in sight. --— Saqib (talk I contribs) 11:26, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support Tban per above. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 11:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - Right now this is just one incident which the user has apologized for. I'm hopeful it won't recur in the future. Hatman31 (he/him · talk · contribs) 15:14, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- oppose this seems punitive and unnecessary. she's already apologized and withdrawn her comment. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 21:53, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose: There doesn't seem to be enough reason to warrant such a sanction. Am I the only one who sees it this way? I'm not aware of any other discussions that might have taken place, but based on what's been presented above, I don't see any personal attack. Xegma said, "..as a woman (herself), I am feeling harassed. That's why I'm reporting here. Please do something." It's normal for someone to feel harassed. Even I sometimes feel harassed, although in this case, I think "frustrated" would have been a more appropriate word. We all know how frustrating it can be when your draft is declined at AFC, nominated for deletion, or your GA nomination fails. It's part of the process, and like other editors who might not express it, Xegma is likely feeling the same frustration. I believe Novem addressed this in the essay, clarifying that it's just a normal part of the editing process—a normal business—that the complainant misunderstood. Additionally, editing Indian articles, which are often targeted by WP:UPE and sock farms, shouldn't be a reason for sanctions. It's important to note that there's a difference between "feeling harassed" and "being harassed," and I don't see anyone else interpreting Xegma's comment of being frustrated as harassed. She need guidance to know about he user talk pages or dispute board instead of AN. Lastly, she also apologized. Cheers! Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 22:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose as unnecessary at this time. Daniel (talk) 22:44, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose and there's no evidence that Xegma is "pretending be female to garner community support". That's an unwarranted and unfounded accusation and I ask that you strike it. Pinguinn 🐧 23:27, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose and you should strike your own accusation per Pinguinn. I suggest this be closed quickly so none of you hits themself with the boomerang in confusion. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 00:01, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Saqib, this proposal and your comment about "pretending to be female" are not only trout-worthy, they could be seen as casting aspersions which can be blocky-worthy. You should strike your ill-founded remarks which, to be honest, reflect poorly on you. Liz Read! Talk! 06:04, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Blatant favoritism in editorialization of article titles about the current conflict in Gaza.
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_in_the_2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel
Unconscionable these two are allowed to exist simultaneously.
This discrepancy ensures that nobody will ever again take this site seriously, as a supposedly neutral and unbiased source.
Not to mention the incitement this implicit accusation entails, justifying the same against Jews:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel
Already i have seen the first URL shared on other websites, as if the title alone were proof of its occurrence, not a link to an article discussing and debating the same.
Some have attempted to address this on their respective Talk pages, but unfortunately those discussions are roundabout and railroaded, and resolve nothing. Brianmarx (talk) 08:06, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- You do not meet the criteria to be able to contribute about this topic, you need to have at least 500 edits. 331dot (talk) 08:11, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Awareness notice given. This should be archived. Selfstudier (talk) 08:16, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I will notify you about the special rules on your user talk page. Wikipedia does not claim to be "neutral and unbiased". Wikipedia summarizes what independent reliable sources say about a topic. Any bias in sources will be reflected in Wikipedia. Sources are presented so that readers can evaluate and judge them for themselves. You are free to read anything on Wikipedia and disagree with all of it. 331dot (talk) 08:13, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
My that was fast. I am aware of these restrictions, I am an established user and editor regardless. They prevented Talk there, so I wrongly assumed discussion would be allowed here. Besides, you know that falling back on that here is an arbitrary gate-keeping restriction to stifle complaints and free conversation. Now on to your attempted excuse: "The sources I have chosen are biased so I must be too" is not at all a valid defense, and in fact makes you complicit in perpetrating this libel. So do you have an actual answer for these important questions that I have raised? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brianmarx (talk • contribs) 08:26, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Brianmarx If you persist in contributing about this topic you will be given an Arbitration enforcement block. The restrictions apply anywhere on Wikipedia, not just on articles about the topic. Wikipedia is not a forum for free discussion, see WP:FREESPEECH. Go to social media to discuss your views about the conflict. 331dot (talk) 08:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Requests for page protection
Can any Admin work on WP:RPP, heavily backlogged. Thanks! JMHamo (talk) 14:29, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Request for unprotection
I have reviewed the draft Draft:Michael A. Aquino and am ready to accept it. However, the page is protected from being moved, as noted in this log. The protection was applied by admin User:The Bushranger (also pinging), who may not be active, as their last edit was in December 2023. I kindly ask that another admin should unprotect the page so it can be moved. Cheers! Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 21:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Admin should consider if the concerns in the VRTS ticket mentioned in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Aquino still apply. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 22:11, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'll just mention that the deleted article (via AFD) and protected page title is about the same person as the draft article covers. The AFD deletion was due, in part, to BLP issues about aspects of their life and allegations that can also be seen in the draft. The subject is no longer living so BLP doesn't apply but the content on the draft is provocative and I think it really should be carefully reviewed to see whether it is appropriate for main space and meets our standards of notability. I'm kind of suprised that after 16 years, some one wants to revive this article. Liz Read! Talk! 05:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- You declined the submission on August 2, saying not yet shown to meet notability guidelines. What changed your mind? I don't see any new sources or content being added to establish notability. And while BLP does not apply here, a court document, ref #[16], should not be used as the only source to support one of those sentences in the controversies section. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have just declined the draft. Needs a more experienced reviewer and broader discussion before this is mainspaced. Star Mississippi 01:21, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Star Mississippi, this is also a way of seeking second opinion. I thought about the draft and it do seem to meet WP:CREATIVE because he founded a notable society and even if it reaches AFD, the highest deletion will be to redirect to the temple. Also, do you mean I'm not in good standing to accept that draft. I asked because you write, "Needs a more experienced reviewer." However, thank you for reviewing. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 04:56, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- You are absolutely in good standing, apologies for any confusion. I think this case is too complex for most AfC reviewers given neither of us an see the VTRS ticket referenced which is a part of why it was deleted. While BLP doesn't apply, an article dedicated to legal activities isn't going to fly without all issues addressed. Star Mississippi 12:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Star Mississippi, this is also a way of seeking second opinion. I thought about the draft and it do seem to meet WP:CREATIVE because he founded a notable society and even if it reaches AFD, the highest deletion will be to redirect to the temple. Also, do you mean I'm not in good standing to accept that draft. I asked because you write, "Needs a more experienced reviewer." However, thank you for reviewing. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 04:56, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looking at the AfD, it appears I was the lucky VRTS agent who handled it 16 years ago (16!). I don't volunteer with VRTS anymore so don't have access to the ticket, so can't confirm its contents. Based on how I used to handle these sorts of tickets though, my best guess would be that Aquino (alive at the time) emailed in complaining about the occasional hatcheting-job of his article (administrators, check out the deleted revisions on 10 May 2008 and also Maquino's edits back in March 2007). Due to the nature of the article and his status as a marginally-notable living person, he may have requested to delete the article (or I may have offered to list at AfD, and he accepted), at which point I listed it at AfD with the nomination statement "Marginal notability, not really a public figure, BLP issues in the past, plus subject requests deletion (OTRS #2008073010004644)". Consensus then supported deletion (correctly, in my opinion). I'm still not convinced we need an article on Aquino, although I acknowledge this draft is better than any deleted version. However, in such a contentious article (in the sense of marginal notability and significant negative material), we absolutely cannot be using primary sources. The more negative or extraordinary the material, the more exemplary the sourcing required. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 23:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Daniel, thanks for searching your memory to piece together why this article was nominated to deletion. It seems pretty clear for a 16 year old incident. Liz Read! Talk! 00:59, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Echoing @Liz's thanks as well @Daniel. Maquino (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) also led me to Michael A. Aquino (lieutenant colonel). We don't really have a forum for the deletion was correct and reasons then may partially apply now, so I guess AN it is. No objection if someone overrules my decline. Thanks @SafariScribe for flagging. Star Mississippi 01:34, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Sock/meatpuppet account targeting AFDs
There is a ridiculous sockfarm on Wikipedia being operated by the sockmaster HaughtonBrit-[35]. They are incredibly fanatical and devoted in their cause to aggrandize their religion's military history and concomitantly downplay other regional powers (to the point where it would put most religious fundamentalists to shame), as you can see virtually all his sock accounts edit in this vein. Long story short: The majority of his sock accounts are employed to hound me/undermine my efforts to help with this POV issue on Wikipedia.
Sock accounts creating articles, almost every single one of them feature Sikh victory-[36], [37], [38], [39]
Sock accounts/IPs/proxies targeting my AFDs/PRODs/+ voting numerous times in AFDs in order to retain articles glorifying his side/delete ones which mention their defeat-he made 4 votes logged out and through proxies, [40], [41], [42], [43], 2 admins said that this was HB block evading, see next diffs- [44] + [45]. See also how his sock accounts were making multiple votes in AFDs and working in tandem on various articles-note many overlapping edits aren't shown because of deleted edits
HB's socks admitting to meatpuppetry campaign-[46] + From my understanding, I do not know either of these users anywhere else on other social media platforms unless they have different online usertag that I am unaware of, in regards to Alvin who I know on another social media platform , but this user had different user tag then the one shown on wikipedia.
This very recently created user, MasterofRepulse, very obviously not a lay editor (see how he turned on Visual Editor 4 minutes after being created and his sandbox has citations which a new user probably wouldn't know how to make 5 minutes in). One of his very first few edits is to create a draft of a badly written/sourced article which I PRODed-[47] and create another draft featuring a Sikh victory-[48]. What is obviously this user's IP/proxy further targets my AFD one day after it was created, and creates a draft of Katoch-Sikh war, same article HB's proxy targeted-[49]. Both the 2402 IP and MasterofRepulse submit their drafts (Battle of Rori Sahib PRODed by me, and Katoch-Sikh war AFDed by me) and comments on Battle of Rumal's AFD minutes apart from one other.
The accounts MasterofRepluse is undeniably a sock/meatpuppet of HB and this is further targeting/attempting to unduly influence AFDs/PRODs in order to further HB's agenda. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 23:14, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Please consider reposting this at WP:SPI, which is the ideal venue for requesting socks be blocked, especially when there is some behavior and patterns and diffs that need to be analyzed. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I realize your SPIs aren't getting the attention you feel they merit, in part due to the SPI backlog and in part due to the proxies, but continuing to give the troll air here/ANI doesn't inspire them to stop. Star Mississippi 11:36, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Nobuyuki Sato
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Can an administrator take a look at Wikipedia:Nobuyuki Sato? This started out as a user sandbox draft that was mistakenly moved to the Wikiepdia namespace by its creator, who then moved it again to the article namespace: first as Nobuyuuki Sato and then again as Nobuyuki Sato (judoka). Does the Wikipedia namespace redirect need to be deleted? -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:38, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Tagged for speedy deletion. Ahri Boy (talk) 02:13, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done by @Liz. Ahri Boy (talk) 03:52, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you Ahri Boy for looking into this, and thank you Liz for sorting it out. -- Marchjuly (talk) 10:39, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done by @Liz. Ahri Boy (talk) 03:52, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Topic Ban info
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I am a bit unclear on how to go forward with appealing a topic ban that I currently have. It appears that I no longer need to go through the usual appeal process according to Wikipedia:Contentious topics since there has not been an update to my topic ban in over a year. How would I go about overturning it? Or is this now automatic? I am a bit unclear and would appreciate any additional info as to what this article means so I can proceed to have my topic ban removed. Thank you in advance to everyone who takes the time to read/answer Lima Bean Farmer (talk) 05:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- I assume this relates to the appeal decline at AE July 2023 and described at your talk. The appeals process is given in a link at the December 2020 notification. Unless I'm missing something, there is no automatic expiration of the topic ban due to "topic ban extended to indefinite" at the 2020 log. Johnuniq (talk) 05:57, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- The CTOP regime tweaked duration of restrictions so that any unilateral action imposed under AE is just like an ordinary administrator action after one year. The question appears to be more about how to appeal (i.e. if they need to appeal to AN or AE and then get a consensus, or if this can be overturned by an uninvolved admin in the way that other ordinary administrative actions are overturned), rather than if the TBAN is still active. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 06:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- This feels like a question that would be well-suited for WP:ARCA. If it were merely Dreamy Jazz's initial TBAN on the books, it would look somewhat obvious to me that it could be appealed to any uninvolved admin. But there was an AE consensus that you should be topic banned from post-1992 AmPol that was reached during an appeal. It is not clear to me whether or not that AE consensus at the time of appeal drags the max length of the sanction's stickiness to be indefinite, but I do feel like this is the sort of edge case that ArbCom should be able to answer with a request for clarification. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 05:59, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Faxxris
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Would an admin mind taking a look at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Faxxris? I can see there's quite a bit of a basklog at SPI and apologize if posting here is jumping the que, but two of the CU-confirmed accounts are now participating in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Caleb Avilés; so, if these accounts are going to end up being blocked, it might be best to do so sooner than later. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:30, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
New tactic from the Dave Plummer Troll
Previous discussions:
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1162#The Dave Plummer Troll is back
- Talk:Dave Plummer#Semi-protected edit request on 23 July 2024
In this edit[50] it appears that the Dave Plummer Troll is now making the same accusations, but this time they ended up on Youtube. I don't think the Wikipedia editor who made the above edit is in any way at fault. I think they just found the link and posted it. I also doubt that the person who owns the Youtube account did anything except repeating the same accusations that the Dave Plummer Troll has been spreading online. All of the arguments in the above threads still apply. The new video once again assumes that if a prosecutor says it it must be true (odd that they don't treat filings by the defense the same way) and ignores the final settlement that the judge signed off on. Not sure what to do about this. --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 03:32, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I reverted the addition of the youtube link at Talk:Dave Plummer until the issue has been examined here. Johnuniq (talk) 04:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Nobody objected to the revert (I did notify the author), so I don't think anything else needs to be done here. I suggest that someone not involved should close this.--Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 16:39, 14 August 2024 (UTC) Edited to strike comment 02:04, 15 August 2024 (UTC)- @Guy Macon Alternate Account: I was looking at the discussion, but didn't really know what to say as again I'm not that familiar with WP policies. That being said, I think the revert wasn't justified, as it was essentially hiding a piece of evidence in my opinion.
- I don't know anything about the "troll", but it is not clear to me why Enderman's link is considered invalid... again from the perspective of someone who doesn't know much. Leaderboard (talk) 17:09, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Guy Macon Alternate Account I'm not sure I understand what you want admins to do. If someone had tried to add the YouTibe video to the article, this would just be a normal content dispute, but it doesn't look like even that happened. Why is this here? Counterfeit Purses (talk) 18:33, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is here because false accusations against BLPs are not allowed anywhere on Wikipedia, including false accusations in the form of a link to a Youtube video that contains a false accusation. The BLP-violating content was removed and as long as nobody objected to the removal of the BLP-violating content, we were done.
- However, Leaderboard has objected, so now I need to present my argument for why I believe that the link is a BLP violation, which I will do below -- please give me time to compose it. If I cannot establish that it was a BLP violation it most likely should be restored, but that is not my decision to make.
- This is one of the two places I could have started that discussion. The other is the BLPNB, and I have no objection to someone moving it there and leaving a link here.
- Once again, please note that I don't think Leaderboard did anything wrong - What I believe was a BLP violation was obviously innocent and unintentional. --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 02:28, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
question re wikipedia rules
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someone just asked me the following. all these years, has no one ever nudged you in the right direction and told you that you're supposed to be summarizing information from reliable secondary sources, proportional to how it appears in these sources? That you can't string together primary sources to support an argument? The historical works and journal articles have already decided what's significant enough to cover.
ok, here i am!! can someone please explain to me whence this view arises that we don't use newspaper articles here as sources? what do we do for any events within the last two weeks, such as elections, riots, legislation, extreme weather, or indeed any such recent or contemporary events at all? can someone please assist? truly asking as a question. thanks!! Sm8900 (talk) 15:54, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- by the way., you can view the actual discussion at WP:Village Pump, on the "Ideas" tab. thanks! Sm8900 (talk) 15:55, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- ... and PS... maybe we need to fix WP:OR? Just a thought! Sm8900 (talk) 15:57, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- ok, actually the person has now helpfully replied to my questions to them, seeking clarification. all's well there. thanks. Sm8900 (talk) 16:43, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- ... and PS... maybe we need to fix WP:OR? Just a thought! Sm8900 (talk) 15:57, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
I am prevented from adding content
here from a User:Montigliani who fantasizes that I'm doing canvassing. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Super_League_Greece#Remove_cited_content D.S. Lioness (talk) 19:43, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- There's a longer history behind this and a more neutral summary might be "two editors using Wikipedia as a battleground after warnings about this issue, and after edit-warring blocks". I created a report at WP:ANEW without being aware of this section here. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:22, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Historical Elections ArbCom case
On 6 August, ArbCom opened a case on Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Historical elections, after preliminary discussion as an ArbCom Motion (rather than, as is more common, after a case request). In preliminary discussion, ArbCom said that the case would be a "hybrid" case because it would involve private evidence as well as public evidence. I submitted a preliminary statement saying that I urged ArbCom to make as much of the evidence public as possible, in order to maintain the trust of the community. If evidence of off-wiki canvassing or off-wiki harassment was mailed to ArbCom, as may have been the case, that evidence should be made available, even if the name of the submitter is withheld for privacy reasons. ArbCom opened the case on 6 August, with a closing date for evidence on 20 August. At this point, on 14 August, the Evidence section consists of one statement that is not really evidence but only a statement, and there has been one entry in the Talk section, mine. One reason for the lack of response may be that ArbCom did not post a notice on WP:AN of the opening of the case. Some community members may not know that there is a case. Another related reason is that ArbCom has not stated what the scope of the case is. Even persons who know that the case is open may not know whether they have relevant evidence to provide.
I can think of three reasons why ArbCom might not have publicized the case:
- 1. ArbCom intends to deal with the case quietly.
- 2. ArbCom has been preoccupied with other matters or distracted.
- 3. ArbCom has been busy behind the scenes dealing with email submissions.
The first, dealing with the case quietly, is a mistake, unless ArbCom is deciding to close the case as improvidently opened. If ArbCom concludes the case with little or no public evidence, and takes action against editors, the community will be dissatisfied with the Star Chamber proceeding. If ArbCom concludes the case with little or no public evidence, and takes no action, the community may see a whitewash.
If either the second or the third explanation, which are the good-faith explanations, is true, then ArbCom should, in my opinion, extend the dates for the case, and should make a statement as to what the scope of the case is. I know that much of the work of ArbCom is invisible. But this case is now partly visible and partly invisible, which is problematic. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:49, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- When was the last case opening that ArbCom created a central notification for? Doing so is not part of the usual procedures and the only one I could find with a quick search was Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard/Archive_12#Fram_case_opened from 2019. The case's scope is "Conduct in the topic area of historical elections" and displayed at the top of the case's pages. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 02:35, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- And the only reason that happened for FRAM was because of WP:FRAMGATE; the community had been demanding very vocally that ArbCom take it up, and the WMF acquiesced. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 02:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
The ArbCom didn't announce on this noticeboard that they had opened the case, but they did post here that they were considering doing so and invited comments, so it's hardly as if they were trying to keep the case as some sort of a secret. Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:19, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't think that ArbCom was trying to keep the case quiet. That was the least likely explanation. But if there was private evidence, then ArbCom should make as much of the evidence public as is possible. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:06, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- This not a matter for the admin noticeboard. Make your point that 'ArbCom should make as much of the evidence public as is possible' on Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Historical elections/Evidence. -- Malcolmxl5 (talk) 05:27, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't think that ArbCom was trying to keep the case quiet. That was the least likely explanation. But if there was private evidence, then ArbCom should make as much of the evidence public as is possible. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:06, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
WP:AIV has large backlog
Seems like WP:AIV is getting backlogged. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 09:00, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Request to collapse a pointless heated discussion
Since we do not have Wikipedia:Requests for collapse, I'll ask here for an uninvolved editor to collapse most of the less-than-ideal discussion at Talk:Occultism_in_Nazism#Merge_with_Esoteric_Nazism (to which I am sadly a party to), before it gets (more) out of hand. I suggest collapsing after the second or third post (the discussion is off topic, reducing the chances of others commenting on the issue at hand - i.e. merge, and has CIV/NPA issues too). TIA. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:26, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
How do I start a deletion discussion?
I want to start a deletion discussion for the List of fictional countries on the Earth, how do I do it? Sekundenlang (talk) 13:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- You should follow the process laid out here. Lectonar (talk) 13:34, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Familiarize yourself with the Wikipedia:Deletion policy, then install Twinkle from Special:Preferences. Click on TW and then XFD in the right-hand corner, fill out your reasonings and submit. NotAGenious (talk) 13:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Andrew Davidson's behavior at DYK
A couple of weeks ago, Andrew Davidson showed up at WT:DYK with Special:Diff/1231899272, in which he called a hook "nonsense" and the nominator "The main culprit". He implied that DYK was not "a respectable publication" and expressed a desire to "shame" DYK in order to "deter sloppy work". Since then, he's been posting reports on WP:ERRORS#Current DYK almost every day complaining about something. Some of his complaints are legitimate, some are not, but the overall tenor seems to be the shaming theme. Yesterday he wrote It's puzzling to me that others have difficulty in spotting such issues which leap out to me
.
Multiple people have requested that instead of waiting for the problems he spots to hit the main page, he could be providing a more valuable service by pointing out mistakes before they get published. Yesterday I requested on his talk page that he stop. In response he gave a long excuse why he's going to keep doing what he's doing, and took another dig at the DYK crew, calling out "careless oversights". He even saw fit to take a dig at how we organize the page we use for our internal discussions, asking "How hard is that?" with reference to his doing something his own way. I guess because he knows better what works for us than the people who work here every day?
All of this would normally not be enough to drag somebody to AN, but I see he's got a long history of this kind of disruptive behavior and is no stranger to WP:AN. In 2017, he avoided any official sanction but was chided for being disruptive at RfA. In 2020, he was warned about bad-faith editing and "advised to take seriously the feedback (and in some cases warnings) offered by many, particularly around personal attacks". In 2021, he was TBANNED from deletion discussions.
It seems inevitable that what's going on at DYK will end up here eventually, so I'm bringing it up now in the hopes of avoiding additional disruption. Nobody's denying that errors get made at DYK. I've certainly complained about my share. But Andrew needs to understand that just standing on the sidelines throwing darts at the people trying to get the work done isn't useful. Like so many parts of enwiki, DYK is understaffed and overworked. We don't need critics, we need more people helping to do the work. RoySmith (talk) 14:17, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- If those responsible for creating DYK content aren't prepared to do the necessary work to get it right, why should anyone else feel obliged to fix it for them? AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:43, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looking at the previous few days of ERRORS I don't see anything actionable. Pointing out issues at the forum for noting such errors isn't disruption: speaking as someone who has only infrequently dealt with the DYK system, it's byzantine and not a great place to browse discussions on hooks. I don't think his behavior counts as "standing on the sidelines" in this case (he is contributing, just not to the degree or in the venue you would prefer.)
- Andrew might be occasionally more pedantic about aspects of the criteria than the regulars at DYK, but I don't see how calling out facts about DYK's regular issues is disruptive on the face. It seems like the fact there isn't any sort of disincentive for posting sloppy or erroneous work to DYK is one of the problems with the process, and should probably be explored if improving the quality of what gets posted is the main goal. I'm not a fan of much of Andrew's conduct, but I don't think poor behavior in deletion discussions is really germane to this situation. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 15:29, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Waiting until the last moment to raise issues is a long-standing problem at DYK, and incredibly annoying. But I was rather surprized to see this complaint being initiated by a regular offender, though he doesn't wait until they are actually on MP. Pot and kettle? Johnbod (talk) 15:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Having problematic or plainly wrong DYK entries on the Main Page is a long-standing problem of DYK, and incredibly annoying. Today, Andrew Davidson raised a complaint about the island hook at WP:ERRORS. But that hook was only in the DYK since yesterday 16.29, earlier there was a different hook[51]. Doesn't give people much time to check these... Fram (talk) 16:05, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- There are many excellent editors involved with DYK, both writing/nominating and reviewing/administrating but the structure and institution of DYK has perennially prioritised quantity over quality, which results in poor hooks and poor-quality articles repeatedly hitting the main page. And historically, DYK has failed to get its own house in order, leaving it to others to point out the problems. While I'm sure we would all appreciate it if Andrew was more constructive in his criticism, DYK is probably more of a net-negative than he is at this point. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- It may be partially a time-on-task matter, rather than quantity, but with humans involved, mistakes, miscommunications, misunderstandings are going to happen, all the way until it roles off the page. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:13, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, but DYK is about filling sets regardless of whether the article is 1500 characters thrown together from a few marginally reliable gossip sites or 15,000 words built from days research using book sources, and the compulsory quid pro quo makes superficial reviews by people with no interest or knowledge of the subject a feature rather than a bug. And instead of requiring higher-quality articles, we just have an extremely complicated set of rules, additional rules, and supplementary rules. All because DYK is designed to keep the backlog down, not encourage quality. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:51, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Interesting, I wonder if anyone really involved in DYK would care to comment, with ways to address, it seems like there could be ways to address some of that (although since there is no real system to qualify writers, qualifying editors seems a real stretch) but 'better articles' might still be a point to go for. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, but DYK is about filling sets regardless of whether the article is 1500 characters thrown together from a few marginally reliable gossip sites or 15,000 words built from days research using book sources, and the compulsory quid pro quo makes superficial reviews by people with no interest or knowledge of the subject a feature rather than a bug. And instead of requiring higher-quality articles, we just have an extremely complicated set of rules, additional rules, and supplementary rules. All because DYK is designed to keep the backlog down, not encourage quality. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:51, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- It may be partially a time-on-task matter, rather than quantity, but with humans involved, mistakes, miscommunications, misunderstandings are going to happen, all the way until it roles off the page. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:13, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- There are many excellent editors involved with DYK, both writing/nominating and reviewing/administrating but the structure and institution of DYK has perennially prioritised quantity over quality, which results in poor hooks and poor-quality articles repeatedly hitting the main page. And historically, DYK has failed to get its own house in order, leaving it to others to point out the problems. While I'm sure we would all appreciate it if Andrew was more constructive in his criticism, DYK is probably more of a net-negative than he is at this point. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Having problematic or plainly wrong DYK entries on the Main Page is a long-standing problem of DYK, and incredibly annoying. Today, Andrew Davidson raised a complaint about the island hook at WP:ERRORS. But that hook was only in the DYK since yesterday 16.29, earlier there was a different hook[51]. Doesn't give people much time to check these... Fram (talk) 16:05, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well, just from watching over the years, volunteer editor-general for Main Page DYK is probably bound to happen. I suppose counseling him to tone it down (and telling him, we are almost all sometimes less than satisfied at what others do, here) might help, as such annoyance, particularly when strident, eventually might boomerang -- there are just more chances to eventually fall down when doing such an in-others-face critiquing role, over and over again. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:18, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Andrew violated no rules, I'm afraid. Just a matter of manners at worst, which isn't actionable. BorgQueen (talk) 18:25, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- When I was a kid, bad manners earned me an early bedtime without supper. But I guess that has gone out of style. RoySmith (talk) 19:33, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- This all feels very similar to how Andrew interacts with ITN: raising a mixture of legitimate and illegitimate criticisms in what is almost certainly good faith but arguably the least helpful way possible; complaining that things should be done his preferred way - even when (sometimes multiple) consensuses have not supported his changes; and/or refusing to see if there is a consensus for his preferences. This in unquestionably annoying and has understandably pissed off multiple people, but fortunately or unfortunately (depending on your point of view) it rarely goes beyond annoying into actionable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thryduulf (talk • contribs) 19:18, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Echoing this, pretty much. Unfortunately par the course for Andrew, it's genuinely annoying behavior but unlike his behavior at AfDs it's not disruptive enough to sanction. The Kip (contribs) 19:56, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Delete link
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Need admin to delete this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Za%27ura&redirect=no (Za'ura)
Im gonna start a new article with this name shortly. Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Just overwrite the redirect, there's no need to delete it in the meantime. Primefac (talk) 16:34, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I want it to be connected to my account. Cant you just delete it? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Assuming that's an invalid redirect, does overwriting it to a Draft in your space work? Selfstudier (talk) 16:59, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- It certainly appears to be a valid redirect, though having some rcats would help to figure out the issue. Primefac (talk) 19:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- If the current target is the only or primary topic the redirect and article should be swapped and at first glance it looks that way, however from creation in 2020 until about an hour and half after this section was started it redirected to Zoora, which notes that "Za'ura" is an alternate romanization. I'm going to take it to RfD. Thryduulf (talk) 21:34, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- It certainly appears to be a valid redirect, though having some rcats would help to figure out the issue. Primefac (talk) 19:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Your edit will still be in the history. People's obsession with having the "N" next to their stats still surprises me. Primefac (talk) 19:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Primefac: Being the author of the first undeleted revision is, as far as I know, still the only way to get notifications when an article you created is backlinked. In this case SD could have avoided that by creating in draftspace/userspace and then requesting a move-over-redirect at WP:RM/TR. But the desire to get those notifications is reasonable. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 00:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Assuming that's an invalid redirect, does overwriting it to a Draft in your space work? Selfstudier (talk) 16:59, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I want it to be connected to my account. Cant you just delete it? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 14 § Za'ura. Thryduulf (talk) 21:45, 14 August 2024 (UTC). Thryduulf (talk) 21:45, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Vandalism and biased opinions
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The user of @Wellington Bay and the user of @Rambling Rambler are seemingly vandalising the updated and edited infomation on the article page of the CWI which is a Trotskyist International. In 2019 it spilt into 3 with one in particularly claiming for a while that they were the continuation of the CWI when in early 2020 they renamed themselves the International Socialist Alternative, with the remaining group still called the CWI to this day since we use the same resources, the same logo and we had our 50th anniversary early this year in April. I have no knowledge if these 2 users are members of the ISA, but I can confidently say that they do not understand our position on the situation and it appears they do not want new information shown on the article. They have given me a partial block on the article, and that's why I am reporting this to you. This is the version I lasted edited, I want an unbiased outsider to please renew this one and the newest one. Thank you. Jamesation (talk) 20:39, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hint, being a COI editor declaring anyone who doesn't like your unsourced edits and correctly removes them as per policy as really being a part of a secret ploy is a really quick way to get banned. Rambling Rambler (talk) 20:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Also accusing User:Wellington Bay and User:Rambling Rambler of vandalism is also considered as a personal attack. Untamed1910 (talk) 20:51, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Enough of this nonsense. I've made them go bye bye. This is not going to work out. Canterbury Tail talk 21:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)