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Request for Comment on shading of MLB rivalry tables
[edit]In late 2023 and early 2024, User:Spesh531 modified rivalry tables by adding team colors to home/away results columns and overall series columns of the table. Previously, only the individual season series column was shaded After some WP:BRD edits today, I believe it should be examined by the the Baseball wikiproject to gain some consensus moving forward. Below is an excerpt from the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry page, in two versions. Frank Anchor 19:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
Version 1
[edit]| 2021 | Red Sox | 10–9 | Yankees, 5–4 | Red Sox, 6–4 | Yankees 1233–1018–14 |
Red Sox win 8 straight meetings (September 2020 to July 2021) immediately following Yankees' 12-game winning streak in the series. |
| 2021 ALWC | Red Sox | 1–0 | — | Red Sox, 1–0 | Yankees 1233–1019–14 |
First meeting in the Wild Card Game since the round was added in 2012. |
| 2022 | Yankees | 13–6 | Yankees, 8–2 | Yankees, 5–4 | Yankees 1246–1025–14 |
|
| 2023 | Red Sox | 9–4 | Red Sox, 5–1 | Red Sox, 4–3 | Yankees 1250–1034–14 |
Schedule structure modified this season to allow every team to play one series against every interleague team. This reduced the number of meetings from 19 to 13 per season. |
| 2024 | Red Sox | 4–2 | Red Sox, 2–1 | Tie, 3–3 | Yankees 1254–1039–14 |
Four games remaining in New York. |
Version 2
[edit]| 2021 | Red Sox | 10–9 | Yankees, 5–4 | Red Sox, 6–4 | Yankees 1233–1018–14 |
Red Sox win 8 straight meetings (September 2020 to July 2021) immediately following Yankees' 12-game winning streak in the series. |
| 2021 ALWC | Red Sox | 1–0 | — | Red Sox, 1–0 | Yankees 1233–1019–14 |
First meeting in the Wild Card Game since the round was added in 2012. |
| 2022 | Yankees | 13–6 | Yankees, 8–2 | Yankees, 5–4 | Yankees 1246–1025–14 |
|
| 2023 | Red Sox | 9–4 | Red Sox, 5–1 | Red Sox, 4–3 | Yankees 1250–1034–14 |
Schedule structure modified this season to allow every team to play one series against every interleague team. This reduced the number of meetings from 19 to 13 per season. |
| 2024 | Red Sox | 4–2 | Red Sox, 2–1 | Tie, 3–3 | Yankees 1254–1039–14 |
Four games remaining in New York. |
Discussion
[edit]- I support Version 2 as nominator. The first version uses TOO MUCH color. Only having the individual season series shaded allow it to better "stand out" since it is more relevant information (most of the tables are in a section entitled "Season-by-season results" or similar). Whichever team won more games at home is in a given year trivial, as is who led an ongoing series after each year (the overall series is summarized at the end of each table, using team colors). Frank Anchor 19:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I support Version 1, as the editor referenced in the intial RfC in question here. First off, there was no consensus prior to my edits of adding this table to all rivalry pages. Some tables existed as Mets/Phillies (Version 1), while some existed as Yankees/Red Sox (Version 2) (which in this case, didn't even feature an 'Overall series' column). Both linked versions are prior to me ever editing either page (save for a single minor edit in 2022 where I changed the "i" in the last names of Joely Rodriguez and Edwin Diaz to "í" on the Mets/Phillies page). By not shading the (for this example) 'at New York', 'at Boston', or 'Overall series' columns, at least to me, the information becomes noise. IMO, everything colored in Version 1 is relevant to the season-by-season results. It's information that becomes less accessible if colorless. Also, the section of the article isn't called "Season series results", it's "Season-by-season results", so there isn't anything explicit about the table that says "only Season series results is relevant".Here are the tables with the column headers, as above examples have no context.
| Yankees vs. Red Sox Season-by-Season Results | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
2020s (Yankees, 39–32) (with each column colored)
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2020s (Yankees, 39–32) (with only season series columns colored)
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- Keeping in mind that each collapsible section of the table is a decade, and in the case of this series, there are 13 sections of 10 seasons each, it's hard to parse through the results of the series specifically in NY or in Boston year-to-year if they are entirely colorless/shaded gray. It's impossible to see trends of how, say, the Yankees performed at Fenway Park from year-to-year. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to look at the headers of the table and understand what's happening in each column. As arguably the most important information, the 'Season series' columns are immediately to the right of the 'Season' column. It doesn't get lost because other columns to the right are colored; there's no separation between the season year and season result. The ability to see the information isn't reduced. The focus is already on the 'Season series' by virtue of where it is in the table.
- Regarding the idea that this is WP:TRIVIA: I want to note that showing the home and overall column data is not in question here. Simply the coloring of said information is. I'm not sure how coloring suddenly makes the information WP:TRIVIA. If it is trivia, then remove the 'at New York', 'at Boston', and 'Overall series' columns completely (which I'm not in favor of). The 'Overall series' column shows legitimate historical context to the history of the rivalry and having said information colorless in an expansive table of colorless information, again, renders it as noise. Spesh531(talk, contrib., ext.) 21:10, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- The coloring is supposed to highlight the main component of the table, which is “season-by-season results” as is the title of the section for many of these charts. The home/away games and the overall series to that point are secondary information and do not need to be as prominently displayed. I would not be opposed to removing this home/away information as trivia, but having it displayed less prominently is acceptable as well. Thank you for adding the column headers on the tables. Not including them was an oversight on my part. Frank Anchor 22:44, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Personally, I don't support using any custom background cell colour. It's long been an accessibility issue, and its legibility needs to be tested with all themes and reading modes. Plus I don't feel it has sufficient utility in the current format. A separate table with just indicators for the season outcome and no text (beyond a single letter to distinguish between the two victors) would be able to better illustrate the trends over the entire history in a more compact format. isaacl (talk) 00:51, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: I am inclined to think these tables are overloaded, and that they probably shouldn't be coloured at all. The colours just reinforce one particular attribute of the data; they do not (and must not) tell us anything the numbers don't. But drawing the reader's attention in this way is an editorial decision: we are saying that the most important thing is which team won more games from some subset. Note that there are other things a reader might be interested in which are equally present in the data but ignored by the colour code: it doesn't matter, for example, whether the Yankees won 8 of 10 games or 5 of 9 games; the colour is the same. And extending the colour code to the rightmost column seems egregiously uninformative. If the Red Sox win every game for years to come, the column will remain blue. Just give the reader the data and let them decide what is important or interesting about it. Regulov (talk) 16:57, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
Placement of Wildcard races
[edit]Since the League/Division standings are no longer side-by-side, but rather one under the other. Where are we going to locate the wildcard races, once it turns September? GoodDay (talk) 02:25, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have two ideas. It should be noted that the standings are side-by-side, but only when the screen resolution is wide enough. If they're not, then the National League wraps around to be below the American League. There are 2 ways we can do this. Either have it so the AL Division standings & AL Wild Card standings wrap together (FORMAT 1), or to have the Wild Card standings entirely below both AL & NL Division standings (FORMAT 2).
- FORMAT 1
American League
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB | Home | Road |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| New York Yankees | 79 | 58 | .577 | — | 37–31 | 42–27 |
| Baltimore Orioles | 79 | 59 | .572 | ½ | 39–30 | 40–29 |
| Boston Red Sox | 70 | 67 | .511 | 9 | 31–38 | 39–29 |
| Tampa Bay Rays | 67 | 69 | .493 | 11½ | 35–36 | 32–33 |
| Toronto Blue Jays | 67 | 72 | .482 | 13 | 34–33 | 33–39 |
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB | Home | Road |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Cleveland Guardians | 78 | 59 | .569 | — | 43–25 | 35–34 |
| Minnesota Twins | 74 | 62 | .544 | 3½ | 39–30 | 35–32 |
| Kansas City Royals | 75 | 63 | .543 | 3½ | 41–28 | 34–35 |
| Detroit Tigers | 70 | 68 | .507 | 8½ | 35–34 | 35–34 |
| Chicago White Sox | 31 | 107 | .225 | 47½ | 18–54 | 13–53 |
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB | Home | Road |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Houston Astros | 75 | 62 | .547 | — | 39–29 | 36–33 |
| Seattle Mariners | 69 | 68 | .504 | 6 | 41–28 | 28–40 |
| Texas Rangers | 65 | 72 | .474 | 10 | 36–32 | 29–40 |
| Oakland Athletics | 59 | 78 | .431 | 16 | 33–35 | 26–43 |
| Los Angeles Angels | 57 | 80 | .416 | 18 | 29–41 | 28–39 |
American League Wild Card
| Team | W | L | Pct. |
|---|---|---|---|
| New York Yankees | 79 | 58 | .577 |
| Cleveland Guardians | 78 | 59 | .569 |
| Houston Astros | 75 | 62 | .547 |
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Baltimore Orioles | 79 | 59 | .572 | +4 |
| Minnesota Twins | 74 | 62 | .544 | — |
| Kansas City Royals | 75 | 63 | .543 | — |
| Boston Red Sox | 70 | 67 | .511 | 4½ |
| Detroit Tigers | 70 | 68 | .507 | 5 |
| Seattle Mariners | 69 | 68 | .504 | 5½ |
| Tampa Bay Rays | 67 | 69 | .493 | 7 |
| Toronto Blue Jays | 67 | 72 | .482 | 8½ |
| Texas Rangers | 65 | 72 | .474 | 9½ |
| Oakland Athletics | 59 | 78 | .431 | 15½ |
| Los Angeles Angels | 57 | 80 | .416 | 17½ |
| Chicago White Sox | 31 | 107 | .225 | 44 |
National League
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB | Home | Road |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Philadelphia Phillies | 81 | 56 | .591 | — | 47–25 | 34–31 |
| Atlanta Braves | 74 | 63 | .540 | 7 | 36–28 | 38–35 |
| New York Mets | 73 | 64 | .533 | 8 | 35–33 | 38–31 |
| Washington Nationals | 61 | 76 | .445 | 20 | 32–37 | 29–39 |
| Miami Marlins | 51 | 86 | .372 | 30 | 25–44 | 26–42 |
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB | Home | Road |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Milwaukee Brewers | 80 | 57 | .584 | — | 40–25 | 40–32 |
| Chicago Cubs | 71 | 66 | .518 | 9 | 36–29 | 35–37 |
| St. Louis Cardinals | 69 | 68 | .504 | 11 | 36–32 | 33–36 |
| Cincinnati Reds | 65 | 73 | .471 | 15½ | 33–39 | 32–34 |
| Pittsburgh Pirates | 63 | 73 | .463 | 16½ | 32–36 | 31–37 |
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB | Home | Road |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Los Angeles Dodgers | 82 | 55 | .599 | — | 45–24 | 37–31 |
| Arizona Diamondbacks | 77 | 60 | .562 | 5 | 39–30 | 38–30 |
| San Diego Padres | 78 | 61 | .561 | 5 | 37–32 | 41–29 |
| San Francisco Giants | 68 | 70 | .493 | 14½ | 39–30 | 29–40 |
| Colorado Rockies | 51 | 87 | .370 | 31½ | 32–37 | 19–50 |
National League Wild Card
| Team | W | L | Pct. |
|---|---|---|---|
| Los Angeles Dodgers | 82 | 55 | .599 |
| Philadelphia Phillies | 81 | 56 | .591 |
| Milwaukee Brewers | 80 | 57 | .584 |
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Arizona Diamondbacks | 77 | 60 | .562 | +3 |
| San Diego Padres | 78 | 61 | .561 | +3 |
| Atlanta Braves | 74 | 63 | .540 | — |
| New York Mets | 73 | 64 | .533 | 1 |
| Chicago Cubs | 71 | 66 | .518 | 3 |
| St. Louis Cardinals | 69 | 68 | .504 | 5 |
| San Francisco Giants | 68 | 70 | .493 | 6½ |
| Cincinnati Reds | 65 | 73 | .471 | 9½ |
| Pittsburgh Pirates | 63 | 73 | .463 | 10½ |
| Washington Nationals | 61 | 76 | .445 | 13 |
| Miami Marlins | 51 | 86 | .372 | 23 |
| Colorado Rockies | 51 | 87 | .370 | 23½ |
- FORMAT 2
American League
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB | Home | Road |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| New York Yankees | 79 | 58 | .577 | — | 37–31 | 42–27 |
| Baltimore Orioles | 79 | 59 | .572 | ½ | 39–30 | 40–29 |
| Boston Red Sox | 70 | 67 | .511 | 9 | 31–38 | 39–29 |
| Tampa Bay Rays | 67 | 69 | .493 | 11½ | 35–36 | 32–33 |
| Toronto Blue Jays | 67 | 72 | .482 | 13 | 34–33 | 33–39 |
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB | Home | Road |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Cleveland Guardians | 78 | 59 | .569 | — | 43–25 | 35–34 |
| Minnesota Twins | 74 | 62 | .544 | 3½ | 39–30 | 35–32 |
| Kansas City Royals | 75 | 63 | .543 | 3½ | 41–28 | 34–35 |
| Detroit Tigers | 70 | 68 | .507 | 8½ | 35–34 | 35–34 |
| Chicago White Sox | 31 | 107 | .225 | 47½ | 18–54 | 13–53 |
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB | Home | Road |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Houston Astros | 75 | 62 | .547 | — | 39–29 | 36–33 |
| Seattle Mariners | 69 | 68 | .504 | 6 | 41–28 | 28–40 |
| Texas Rangers | 65 | 72 | .474 | 10 | 36–32 | 29–40 |
| Oakland Athletics | 59 | 78 | .431 | 16 | 33–35 | 26–43 |
| Los Angeles Angels | 57 | 80 | .416 | 18 | 29–41 | 28–39 |
National League
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB | Home | Road |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Philadelphia Phillies | 81 | 56 | .591 | — | 47–25 | 34–31 |
| Atlanta Braves | 74 | 63 | .540 | 7 | 36–28 | 38–35 |
| New York Mets | 73 | 64 | .533 | 8 | 35–33 | 38–31 |
| Washington Nationals | 61 | 76 | .445 | 20 | 32–37 | 29–39 |
| Miami Marlins | 51 | 86 | .372 | 30 | 25–44 | 26–42 |
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB | Home | Road |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Milwaukee Brewers | 80 | 57 | .584 | — | 40–25 | 40–32 |
| Chicago Cubs | 71 | 66 | .518 | 9 | 36–29 | 35–37 |
| St. Louis Cardinals | 69 | 68 | .504 | 11 | 36–32 | 33–36 |
| Cincinnati Reds | 65 | 73 | .471 | 15½ | 33–39 | 32–34 |
| Pittsburgh Pirates | 63 | 73 | .463 | 16½ | 32–36 | 31–37 |
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB | Home | Road |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Los Angeles Dodgers | 82 | 55 | .599 | — | 45–24 | 37–31 |
| Arizona Diamondbacks | 77 | 60 | .562 | 5 | 39–30 | 38–30 |
| San Diego Padres | 78 | 61 | .561 | 5 | 37–32 | 41–29 |
| San Francisco Giants | 68 | 70 | .493 | 14½ | 39–30 | 29–40 |
| Colorado Rockies | 51 | 87 | .370 | 31½ | 32–37 | 19–50 |
American League Wild Card
| Team | W | L | Pct. |
|---|---|---|---|
| New York Yankees | 79 | 58 | .577 |
| Cleveland Guardians | 78 | 59 | .569 |
| Houston Astros | 75 | 62 | .547 |
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Baltimore Orioles | 79 | 59 | .572 | +4 |
| Minnesota Twins | 74 | 62 | .544 | — |
| Kansas City Royals | 75 | 63 | .543 | — |
| Boston Red Sox | 70 | 67 | .511 | 4½ |
| Detroit Tigers | 70 | 68 | .507 | 5 |
| Seattle Mariners | 69 | 68 | .504 | 5½ |
| Tampa Bay Rays | 67 | 69 | .493 | 7 |
| Toronto Blue Jays | 67 | 72 | .482 | 8½ |
| Texas Rangers | 65 | 72 | .474 | 9½ |
| Oakland Athletics | 59 | 78 | .431 | 15½ |
| Los Angeles Angels | 57 | 80 | .416 | 17½ |
| Chicago White Sox | 31 | 107 | .225 | 44 |
National League Wild Card
| Team | W | L | Pct. |
|---|---|---|---|
| Los Angeles Dodgers | 82 | 55 | .599 |
| Philadelphia Phillies | 81 | 56 | .591 |
| Milwaukee Brewers | 80 | 57 | .584 |
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Arizona Diamondbacks | 77 | 60 | .562 | +3 |
| San Diego Padres | 78 | 61 | .561 | +3 |
| Atlanta Braves | 74 | 63 | .540 | — |
| New York Mets | 73 | 64 | .533 | 1 |
| Chicago Cubs | 71 | 66 | .518 | 3 |
| St. Louis Cardinals | 69 | 68 | .504 | 5 |
| San Francisco Giants | 68 | 70 | .493 | 6½ |
| Cincinnati Reds | 65 | 73 | .471 | 9½ |
| Pittsburgh Pirates | 63 | 73 | .463 | 10½ |
| Washington Nationals | 61 | 76 | .445 | 13 |
| Miami Marlins | 51 | 86 | .372 | 23 |
| Colorado Rockies | 51 | 87 | .370 | 23½ |
- Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but with the current Template:Flexbox wrap format, I think these are the two options. Spesh531(talk, contrib., ext.) 19:51, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've wondered.. why do we have the division winners are part of the wild card templates? They are usually on the same page as the division standings templates so it seems redundant. For what it's worth.. format 2 looks better than format 1 to me. Spanneraol (talk) 20:12, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Trois-Rivières Aigles (2013–)#Requested move 1 August 2024
[edit]
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Trois-Rivières Aigles (2013–)#Requested move 1 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 21:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Ernie Johnson Jr.#Requested move 5 August 2024
[edit]There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Ernie Johnson Jr.#Requested move 5 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 06:06, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Page move regarding A's/Giants and the Bay Bridge Series
[edit]I've started a discussion regarding the move of Bay Bridge Series to Athletics–Giants rivalry here. Spesh531(talk, contrib., ext.) 21:32, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
This baseball specific guideline is in a standalone page, but a copy of it is also at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sportspeople) § Baseball. Is there a reason to maintain two copies, and risk having them go out of sync? There might have been a historical reason, but is it still viable? Any objections to redirecting to the general sports page? —Bagumba (talk) 09:44, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Since the standalone page predates the common page, personally I prefer removing the content at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sportspeople) § Baseball, leaving just the pointer to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (baseball players). This will keep the history of changes in one location. isaacl (talk) 15:42, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. Spanneraol (talk) 16:44, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Disambiguating people with multiple roles
[edit]There's Tom Williams (outfielder/pitcher) (from an RM) and Rick Anderson (pitcher/coach), among others. Are slashes in parenthetical disambiguation a thing for baseball? If so, why do we settle on Dave Roberts (baseball manager), who also had a long career as an outfielder? And what is the criteria for adding "coach" to the titles of all these ex-players turned coaches? —Bagumba (talk) 11:50, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Cleveland Guardians vs Cincinnati Reds Ohio Cup
[edit]Hello there, just wanted to give a heads up that the Cleveland Guardians vs Cincinnati Reds “Ohio Cup” Rivalry Wiki Page in season by season results does not show who won the annual series year by year (1997-present day) They appear blank. It’s the last part of the Ohio Cup Wiki Page. It’s blank.
Thank you! Hope you have a good day. Be safe AhBigKev (talk) 15:35, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
There is a discussion underway at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 August 20 as to whether or not the above image has sufficient importance. Cbl62 (talk) 23:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Good article reassessment for Cubs Win Flag
[edit]Cubs Win Flag has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Hog Farm Talk 01:31, 31 August 2024 (UTC)