Wikipedia talk:Non-free content
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Non-free images of living Taliban officials
[edit]Given that a non-free images of certain North Korean leaders were not considered to be NFCCP compliant for the longest time while they were still living, I'm wondering how non-free images of current Taliban government officials like File:Muhammad Yousuf Wafa.jpg should be treated per WP:FREER. I'm not sure you could argue that these people are any more reclusive or difficult to photograph that perhaps some other world leaders who might in some way be considered pariahs. Given that photos of them do seem to popping up in media reports every now and then doesn't seem to indicate that anyone approaching them with a camera ends up being shot in their tracks. If, for example, you do a Google Image search of Muhammad Yousuf Wafa, several different images of him seem to show up. Unless the argument here is that these persons are terrorists and thus near impossible to photograph, it's not totally clear (at least to me) whether non-free images of them are truly non-replaceable non-free use. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's hard to say. Now that the civil war is over and more people have cameras than in 2001 (or 1996, or 1989...) I think it's possible we'd start seeing the governors of provinces like Herat (important guy for the Iranians to talk to) showing up for meetings and summits abroad. Remsense诉 07:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- All fair points here. I'd offer that a photo-free and reclusive life as a provincial governor is more socially/politically normal in Afghanistan today than nearly anywhere else in the world. Few if any provincial offices have a (generously-named) media office which will see various appointments/removals by the Supreme Leader and not publish an image of the governor. While phones are certainly more prevalent than in previous periods of Taliban rule, within the last year Taliban have cracked down with laws against any/all media depicting human beings. Perhaps most relevant to this discussion, one of the best known Taliban commanders and now provincial governor, Mullah Shirin Akhund of Kandahar, has issued a directive prohibiting the taking of photos and filming of Taliban meetings, grossly reducing the likelihood of any free alternatives from arising.[1] The opportunities for freely photographing the vast majority of governors who are not invited to meet with foreign (Pakistani or Iranian) officials are next to none.
- Put shortly, go through the list of provincial governors and count how many have had a free photo ever published. Then count how many free photos have been published since the 2021 declaration of the IEA (I've yet to find one). The restrictions on already rare photographing of officials are only tightening. RightQuark (talk) 00:39, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- Quite; I was thinking about this again a few weeks after posting it, and I realized then that there was really another country less likely to get photographed, even in the new phase in Afghan history. I'll put it this way: better than it was since 1979, still doesn't look good, wouldn't hold my breath. Remsense诉 00:41, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- Absolutely. The proliferation of smartphones certainly offered the 2021 Taliban a chance to join the rest of the world in integrating technology and media with public governance but it seems they're very much doubling down on times and policies of old. RightQuark (talk) 00:48, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- I bet we can slip a few into the shipment to see if they find a use for them when we start selling them Stinger missiles again somewhere down the line. Remsense诉 00:56, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- Absolutely. The proliferation of smartphones certainly offered the 2021 Taliban a chance to join the rest of the world in integrating technology and media with public governance but it seems they're very much doubling down on times and policies of old. RightQuark (talk) 00:48, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- Quite; I was thinking about this again a few weeks after posting it, and I realized then that there was really another country less likely to get photographed, even in the new phase in Afghan history. I'll put it this way: better than it was since 1979, still doesn't look good, wouldn't hold my breath. Remsense诉 00:41, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- Per WMF:Licensing policy, we can not allow these non-free images just because it's "difficult". Kim Jong-un was difficult, and now we have a number of free license option images of him. These are living, notable individuals. We have two images in question; File:Muhammad Yousuf Wafa.jpg and File:Mohammad Ayub Khalid.png. In the former case, the justification that it is not replaceable with a free image is that we can't create a derivative work of this image. We know that. That doesn't preclude the possibility of another image of him being created to serve the same purpose. In the latter case, the justification is "m". Umm...? "M"? These images have to go. Sorry. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:56, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have tagged both of these images for deletion as replaceable, non-free use images, notified the uploader, and added appropriate captions to the articles in question. I'm sorry, but there's really no wiggle room on this. These are public, living, notable figures. There's no plausible justification for using non-free images in this case, per the WMF's licensing policy noted above and WP:NFCC #1. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:33, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ Framarz, Fatima (2024-02-19). "Taliban Bans Photography in Kandahar, Raising Alarms Over Information Access". KabulNow. Retrieved 2024-08-04.
Mohammed Deif
[edit]@Bremps and HaeB: may be interested here. There are two AFP (presumably non-free) photos of Mohammed Deif at The News (Pakistan) and Middle East Eye. Deif's article says that he deliberately avoids being photographed, presumably for security reasons. He's currently one of five people for whom arrest warrants have been requested within the ICC for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Is a non-free image of Deif justified? Looking through the 10 WP:NFCCP criteria:
1. It's extremely likely that no free equivalent exists, and the most credible scenarios of a photo becoming available are probably (a) assassination by Israeli forces and publication of photos of his corpse, which would make publication of a photo very likely quite controversial under general WP:BLP guidelines (WP:BDP indirectly mentions recently deceased), or (b) the arrest warrant is accepted and Palestinian authorities manage to detain him and transfer him safely to The Hague, despite internal disagreements among various Palestinian political groups and security forces. The probabilities of (a) and (b) are highly speculative.
2. No idea about "commercial" opportunities being obstructed - I guess an even lower resolution of the already low resolution photos could be used?
7. I would recommend usage in both Mohammed Deif and International Criminal Court investigation in Palestine#arrest warrants.
8. I'm not sure about the absence of a photo being "detrimental", and I don't see how adding a photo "significantly increases understanding". Whether someone has round, pointy, or squarish eyes/nose/chin/cheek bones/eyebrows or straight/curly/blond/brown/dark hair usually doesn't help understand that person except if his/her occupation is in modelling (beauty competitions) or as an actor/actress (an exception is Viktor Yushchenko who survived poisoning - the poisoning was a notable event in his life, still visible in his current preferred Wikipedia photo).
I don't know if 1 includes a time scale. The inertia in the current situation makes it unlikely for either (a) or (b) to occur any time soon. If "could" is interpreted as "could within a reasonable time scale", then 1 could be considered to be satisfied.
However, I would see 8 as a strong argument against. Deif (along with four others) is a suspected war criminal - what he looks like is (as far as I know) irrelevant except for the police forces of states parties to the Rome Statute (includes Palestine, excludes Israel), which is a police issue, not an encyclopedic issue. Wikipedia does not have a role in policing. Boud (talk) 14:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- AFP photos are subject to speedy deletion per WP:F7 as images from a commercial agency. AFP photos do not meet WP:NFCC#2 as using them to illustrate Mohammed Deif directly competes with AFPs commercial usage where they license such images to customers who what to illustrate Mohammed Deif. -- Whpq (talk) 14:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I would argue that a picture does actually add context, especially in the photos in which his missing eye is clearly visible, obviously relevant to the topic.
- i am including such a picture, https://www.longwarjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/idf-deif-1000-768x429.jpg obviously, it should be cropped to remove the text. Darter25 (talk) 15:29, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
Non-free photos of non-free cover art
[edit]Are two copyright licenses and non-free use rationales needed for photos of non-free cover art like File:Midnight Mass, 1981 short fiction collection by Paul Bowles. Black Sparrow Press.jpg in cases where the uploader of the file doesn't appear to be the same person who took the photo? According to c:COM:2D copying, a slavish photo of a piece of cover art is generally not considered creative enough to generate a new copyright for the photo itself under US copyright law; so, in such cases, a non-free use rationale and non-free copyright license for the cover art is all that's needed assuming WP:NFCCP is met. When, however, the photo of the cover art is not really taken "straight on" (as in this particular case), it seems that photo as well might be eligible for copyright protection. This seems to create a situation of "double" non-free content use in which both the photo and the cover art need to be treated as non-free. I guess if the person who took the photo and the uploader of the photo are the same, then it might be construed that the uploader is agreeing to release their work (i.e. the photo) under an acceptable free license by clicking on the "Publish changes" button. How does the NFCC, though, handle cases where the photo was not taken by the uploader? Is it OK to assume that the photo is also implicitely covered by the license and rationale provided for the cover art? Does there need to be a separate license (and rationale) for the photo? Should such a photo be considered a violation of WP:FREER because someone could take a photo of the cover art and agree to release it under an acceptable free license?
FWIW, I've seen examples of photos of non-free product labels/packaging uploaded with a non-free license and non-free content use rationale being provided for the label/packaging, but an additional free license being provided for the photo. So, I'm wondering if the same sort of thing applies to photos of cover art as well. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:28, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm going to add File:Language, Introductory Readings.png as another example. This file was recently uploaded and comes from ebay. The photographed cover art seems to be too simple to be eligible for copyright protection, but the photo of the cover might be eligible for copyright protection. If that's really the case, then this would seem to fail WP:FREER. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Having a second license to cover the photo of a piece of copyright art is reasonable, particularly if that second license is a free use license, such that when the copyrighted item goes out of copyright, then the photo of it leaves non-free territory.
- In the case of the book photo, the fact that it is presented in a 3D manner means that should not be considered a mechanical copy of the book cover. So the mechanical duplication is not there, and there is potential copyright on that picture atop the cover art of the book. So a second license is essential there. Now, that license really should be free, because if not, then the freer option is just the straight on shot of the book cover.
- The Language book is where it is probably better to use the book cover image and I see various different ones out there, not limited to that edition of the book. Masem (t) 05:17, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the input. Do you think non-free photos of book cover art are eligible for speedy deletion per WP:F7 or should be discussed at FFD? The two files I mentioned above do seem to have FREER issues only because they're not straight-on photos, which would seem to mean they're reasonably replaceable with a straight photo showing only the cover. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:19, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Unless we're talking a rare book where there's no expectation of a digital scan, then yes, I would agree that they probably should be deleted. Masem (t) 12:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's about where I land. Probably the easiest thing is to just upload a straight-on to replace it and speedy it unused. (And yeah, hypothetically if there is no freer alternative and it's sufficiently rare, then sure, an image of a book against a neutral background doesn't inherently meet the threshold of creativity just because it's rotated about the vertical axis.) Feoffer (talk) 13:21, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I always look to locate the oldest possible edition. Ideally the 1st edition for book covers, but in this case the oldest that I could locate anywhere was the 2nd edition book cover already cited by @Marchjuly above. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:56, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Iljhgtn. Thanks for clarifying things. The problem is not really related to the particular edition of the book shown in the photo, but rather the copyright status of the photo itself. The cover seems too simple to be eligible for copyright protection under US copyright law, and a straight-on photo or scan of the cover could be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons under a c:Template:PD-simple, c:Template:PD-scan or c:Template:PD-text license because it would be considered a slavish (i.e. mechanical or faithful) 2D reproduction of the cover that lacks sufficient creative input to estabish a separate copyright for the photo.The photo you uploaded, however, is not taken straight-on but shows 3D aspects of the cover, and this means there's a really good chance that the photo is in and of itself is eligible for copyright protection separately from the cover art. If, therefore, the only reason for the file you uploaded needing to be treated as non-free content is the photo, then that would be a failure of WP:NFCC#1 (WP:FREER). This is because someone else could either create a faithful 2D reproduction of the cover and upload it to use instead of this or any non-free image of the cover, or they could take their own 3D photo of the cover and release their photo under an acceptable free license. Since only the copyright loader can release their work under the type of free licenses that Wikipedia accepts, and the photographer who takes a photo is, in principle, considered to be the copyright holder of said photo, a free license for the photo can't be added with verifying the WP:CONSENT of its copyright holder. So, unless you yourself took the photo and agree to release the photo under a free license, I don't see how Wikipedia can keep this file with WP:VRT verification. Do you know whether this is just a different cover of the same book? How about this or this? They might not be covers from the same edition as the one you uploaded, but they might be better options from a Wikipedia non-free content use policy standpoint if they're the same book because they're "freer" in terms of copyright encumberment. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Marchjuly The examples that you linked to show the same book, but different, later, editions. I have no problem with you or someone else uploading one of those instead. I could not find the first edition, and so if the second edition which I uploaded is not permitted then we should just use one of the examples you linked to. Iljhgtn (talk) 00:41, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Masem and Feoffer: Does either of you think that one of the other cover images I linked to above could be used instead of this non-free one? One looks pretty much like a scan, but it does look different from the file that was uploaded. The other two are bascially the same as the one that was uploaded with only differences in color. These two are photos but they're pretty straight on and look like they could be easily cropped if needed (much in the same way a frame is cropped out of a photo of a painting when needed). -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- They are different editions, that is why their color is different. I try for the oldest possible edition normally, ideally the 1st edition, but that is not always available. Iljhgtn (talk) 00:42, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Given that from what I can see theres only minor variations in the cover outside text and colors for at least the first few editions, I don't think we need to be married to trying to use the earliest if we are dealing with a poor photo against a digital scan. The cover's too simple for copyright, so a straight on shot of any edition that conveys that cover info is sufficient. — Masem (t) 03:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- They are different editions, that is why their color is different. I try for the oldest possible edition normally, ideally the 1st edition, but that is not always available. Iljhgtn (talk) 00:42, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Iljhgtn. Thanks for clarifying things. The problem is not really related to the particular edition of the book shown in the photo, but rather the copyright status of the photo itself. The cover seems too simple to be eligible for copyright protection under US copyright law, and a straight-on photo or scan of the cover could be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons under a c:Template:PD-simple, c:Template:PD-scan or c:Template:PD-text license because it would be considered a slavish (i.e. mechanical or faithful) 2D reproduction of the cover that lacks sufficient creative input to estabish a separate copyright for the photo.The photo you uploaded, however, is not taken straight-on but shows 3D aspects of the cover, and this means there's a really good chance that the photo is in and of itself is eligible for copyright protection separately from the cover art. If, therefore, the only reason for the file you uploaded needing to be treated as non-free content is the photo, then that would be a failure of WP:NFCC#1 (WP:FREER). This is because someone else could either create a faithful 2D reproduction of the cover and upload it to use instead of this or any non-free image of the cover, or they could take their own 3D photo of the cover and release their photo under an acceptable free license. Since only the copyright loader can release their work under the type of free licenses that Wikipedia accepts, and the photographer who takes a photo is, in principle, considered to be the copyright holder of said photo, a free license for the photo can't be added with verifying the WP:CONSENT of its copyright holder. So, unless you yourself took the photo and agree to release the photo under a free license, I don't see how Wikipedia can keep this file with WP:VRT verification. Do you know whether this is just a different cover of the same book? How about this or this? They might not be covers from the same edition as the one you uploaded, but they might be better options from a Wikipedia non-free content use policy standpoint if they're the same book because they're "freer" in terms of copyright encumberment. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I always look to locate the oldest possible edition. Ideally the 1st edition for book covers, but in this case the oldest that I could locate anywhere was the 2nd edition book cover already cited by @Marchjuly above. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:56, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's about where I land. Probably the easiest thing is to just upload a straight-on to replace it and speedy it unused. (And yeah, hypothetically if there is no freer alternative and it's sufficiently rare, then sure, an image of a book against a neutral background doesn't inherently meet the threshold of creativity just because it's rotated about the vertical axis.) Feoffer (talk) 13:21, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Unless we're talking a rare book where there's no expectation of a digital scan, then yes, I would agree that they probably should be deleted. Masem (t) 12:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the input. Do you think non-free photos of book cover art are eligible for speedy deletion per WP:F7 or should be discussed at FFD? The two files I mentioned above do seem to have FREER issues only because they're not straight-on photos, which would seem to mean they're reasonably replaceable with a straight photo showing only the cover. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:19, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
@Iljhgtn: Why did you upload File:The Last of Chéri.png as non-free? If it was first published prior to January 1, 1929, then there's a good chance that it's already within the public domain simply due to its age. In addition, the covere is pretty much nothing more than text on a light green background, and neither of thsse things are typically considered sufficiently creative to warrant copyright protection. So, if the only reason you've uploaded this as non-free is because of the photo and because you found it online, then as explained above that can be a problem per WP:FREER. You also uploaded File:Chéri (novel) book cover.png and File:Lateness (book).jpg as non-free but as you can see both re-licensed as PD. It's a mistake to assume that a book cover automatically needs to be treated as non-free just because it's a book cover. It's safe and simple to do so perhaps, but not always necessary. It's great that your looking for and uploading book cover art to add to Wikipedia articles, but some of these probably can be safely uploaded to Commons, which would make them much easier to use by other WMF projects. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:49, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- True enough, but if I upload them as non-free, which in many cases is true, then it is safe for that single instance of upload. Someone can find the file elsewhere on their own if they would like. I am only uploading for the single instance of a single book in each case, and though some of the images may be PD, that is not where I found them, so I am uploading it is non-free which still makes the image permissible for the infobox usage of a book. Iljhgtn (talk) 04:55, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:The Law of Civilization and Decay.png is another example. If the book The Law of Civilization and Decay was first published in 1895, then it's almost a 100% certaintly that the book (including its cover art) is no longer eligible for copyright protection and is within the public domain. It seems you might be sacrificing a bit of accurancy in favor of expediency when it comes to uploading files. Uploading clearly public domain content as non-free content when you might not know better is something that can perhas be understood, particulary for those not regularly uploading files; however, doing so when you strongly suspect the cover to be PD and aren't total newbie when it comes to uploading files is not really helpful (at least not in my opinion). In those cases where you kind of think it might be PD but perhaps aren't sure, you can always ask for opinions at WP:MCQ or even c:COM:VPC. Others shouldn't have to find a PD file elsewehere and upload it to Commons just because you uploaded the same file locally to Wikipedia as as non-free. If you don't want to upload such files to Commons yourself, upload them locally to Wikipedia, tagged them with {{Copy to Wikimedia Commons}}, and someone else will move them to Commons.Just for refernce, there's nothing in Wikipedia's non-free content use policy that states non-free content can only be used once; policy only states non-free content needs have a valid use in at least one article. A non-free book cover can, therefore, be used more than once as long as each of its uses satisfies relevant policy. Primary identification of the book itself in a stand-alone article about the book is, in principle, considered the best policy-compliant way to use a non-free book cover, but that doesn't mean it's the only way the file can be used.-- Marchjuly (talk) 05:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Non-free content has to be used minimally. That is actually one of the justifications or explanations in the form you fill out when you upload that content. The PD content though should be uploaded another way, I have just never really uploaded content other than as non-free (when there might be an issue of copyright), because then no one can worry that the content might be protected. Usually when I used to upload images earlier on people would be concerned about the copyright more than anything else, so in this manner I haven't ever really gotten a complaint until now. Iljhgtn (talk) 05:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yet another example just uploaded is File:The Law (Bastiat book).png for the 1850 book The Law (Bastiat book). The technical process of upoading any file is pretty much the same regardless of its copyright status. You can use WP:UPLOAD and Special:Upload for public domain and freely licensed content just as easily as you can use them for non-free content. You just need to choose something other than a non-free license when uploading the file. You can even upload a file as non-free and then convert it to PD license if you want. Once again, uploading everything as non-free is safe for sure, but it's not really necessarily it each and every case. It's also probably not something that someone who regulary is uploading files and seem to have a good understanding of file copyright licensing should (at least in my opinion) be doing. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Better safe than sorry. My experience has been to always err on the conservative side with file uploading. 99 times out of 100 if someone has a problem with your upload, it is because of copyright not concerns, not that it was uploaded too restrictively. I do understand what you're saying though, so for the books that are 1800's era, I will look at uploading as PD. Iljhgtn (talk) 05:41, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- I followed your direction for this next one The Leavenworth Case. Iljhgtn (talk) 06:18, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Better safe than sorry. My experience has been to always err on the conservative side with file uploading. 99 times out of 100 if someone has a problem with your upload, it is because of copyright not concerns, not that it was uploaded too restrictively. I do understand what you're saying though, so for the books that are 1800's era, I will look at uploading as PD. Iljhgtn (talk) 05:41, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yet another example just uploaded is File:The Law (Bastiat book).png for the 1850 book The Law (Bastiat book). The technical process of upoading any file is pretty much the same regardless of its copyright status. You can use WP:UPLOAD and Special:Upload for public domain and freely licensed content just as easily as you can use them for non-free content. You just need to choose something other than a non-free license when uploading the file. You can even upload a file as non-free and then convert it to PD license if you want. Once again, uploading everything as non-free is safe for sure, but it's not really necessarily it each and every case. It's also probably not something that someone who regulary is uploading files and seem to have a good understanding of file copyright licensing should (at least in my opinion) be doing. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Non-free content has to be used minimally. That is actually one of the justifications or explanations in the form you fill out when you upload that content. The PD content though should be uploaded another way, I have just never really uploaded content other than as non-free (when there might be an issue of copyright), because then no one can worry that the content might be protected. Usually when I used to upload images earlier on people would be concerned about the copyright more than anything else, so in this manner I haven't ever really gotten a complaint until now. Iljhgtn (talk) 05:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:The Law of Civilization and Decay.png is another example. If the book The Law of Civilization and Decay was first published in 1895, then it's almost a 100% certaintly that the book (including its cover art) is no longer eligible for copyright protection and is within the public domain. It seems you might be sacrificing a bit of accurancy in favor of expediency when it comes to uploading files. Uploading clearly public domain content as non-free content when you might not know better is something that can perhas be understood, particulary for those not regularly uploading files; however, doing so when you strongly suspect the cover to be PD and aren't total newbie when it comes to uploading files is not really helpful (at least not in my opinion). In those cases where you kind of think it might be PD but perhaps aren't sure, you can always ask for opinions at WP:MCQ or even c:COM:VPC. Others shouldn't have to find a PD file elsewehere and upload it to Commons just because you uploaded the same file locally to Wikipedia as as non-free. If you don't want to upload such files to Commons yourself, upload them locally to Wikipedia, tagged them with {{Copy to Wikimedia Commons}}, and someone else will move them to Commons.Just for refernce, there's nothing in Wikipedia's non-free content use policy that states non-free content can only be used once; policy only states non-free content needs have a valid use in at least one article. A non-free book cover can, therefore, be used more than once as long as each of its uses satisfies relevant policy. Primary identification of the book itself in a stand-alone article about the book is, in principle, considered the best policy-compliant way to use a non-free book cover, but that doesn't mean it's the only way the file can be used.-- Marchjuly (talk) 05:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
File:King Charles III of Australia official portrait.jpg
[edit]File:King Charles III of Australia official portrait.jpg seems to be a clear violation (at least to me) of WP:FREER given there are various free alternatives of King Charles III already on Commons at c:Category:Charles III of the United Kingdom. The question is whether this is eligible for speedy deletion per WP:F7 or should be discussed at FFD. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:55, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- I disagree, the image has been released with a CC BY 4.0 license [1] and a note of non-commercial use here [2].
- Similar images exist on Wikipedia under the CC BY 4.0 license, namely File:The Queen of Australia.jpg which is also under the same licence [3] which would have the same non-commercial caveat, however is a featured image on WP. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 01:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- If its a matter of incorrect licencing displayed, then that should just be altered. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 01:05, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- WP:FREER has to do with WP:NFCC#1. Wikipedia's non-free content use policy doesn't allow the use of non-free images to be used when a free image either already exists or there's a reasonable expectation that one can be created or found to serve the essentially the same encyclopedic purpose as any non-free. This the primary reason why a non-free image is pretty much never allowed for a living person. A non-commercial or non-derivative Creative Commons license is freer than an "All Rights reserved" type of license, but it's still not free enough per WP:COPY#Guidelines for images and other media files or c:COM:LJ. So, it's treated as non-free content, which means a freely licensed or public domain image such as File:King Charles III (July 2023).jpg, which was being used in the Monarchy of Australia before you replaced with the non-free one discussed here, is more than sufficient for Wikipedia's purposes per relevant Wikipedia policy. In addition, the fact that something is released under a NC or ND license doesn't mean it isn't required (i.e. isn't subject to being reduced) to comply with WP:NFCC#3.The image File:The Queen of Australia.jpg was not uploaded locally to Wikipedia as non-free content; it was uploaded to Commons. Moreover, there's nothing in the file's description that implies its subject to the same non-commercial restrictions as the file you uploaded. If there were, it mostly would've never be kept on Comons. So, those are two big differences between the files. The file you uploaded, however, is specifically not allowed to be used for commercial purposes according to www
.pmc .gov .au /government /official-australian-portraits-king-and-queen despite the more general copyright notice found at www .pmc .gov .au /copyright-and-disclaimer per the description you provided for the file. If the website seems contradictory regarding this, that's the an issue for the website, not Wikipedia, to sort out. You might want to ask about this at c:COM:VPC to see whether the file you want to upload is OK for Commons and really equivalent to the "Queen of Australia" photo because that's where it should be hosted if it is. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:44, 22 July 2024 (UTC) - I feel like I understand what you're getting at, but you've got a lot of unclear policy there. So the CIIIR image would just need to be moved to commons in a derivative manner? I believe it isn't easily replaceable as its the official portrait for Australia, as just like the QEII portrait, it wasn't authored by the QLD government (official portraits are administered by the Federal government not the states), it was the official portrait for Australia produced at/by Buckingham Palace, so quite reasonable to assume its just as unfree. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 03:24, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- I should add, if you’re saying it definitely can’t be used, then, obviously I’m in favour of speedy deleting. But I also don’t think it’s replaceable for my above reasoning. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 03:36, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- A user named ITBF started a discussion about this file at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 July 22#File:King Charles III of Australia official portrait.jpg. Probably best that any further comments on the file be made there. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:42, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- I should add, if you’re saying it definitely can’t be used, then, obviously I’m in favour of speedy deleting. But I also don’t think it’s replaceable for my above reasoning. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 03:36, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- I feel like I understand what you're getting at, but you've got a lot of unclear policy there. So the CIIIR image would just need to be moved to commons in a derivative manner? I believe it isn't easily replaceable as its the official portrait for Australia, as just like the QEII portrait, it wasn't authored by the QLD government (official portraits are administered by the Federal government not the states), it was the official portrait for Australia produced at/by Buckingham Palace, so quite reasonable to assume its just as unfree. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 03:24, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- WP:FREER has to do with WP:NFCC#1. Wikipedia's non-free content use policy doesn't allow the use of non-free images to be used when a free image either already exists or there's a reasonable expectation that one can be created or found to serve the essentially the same encyclopedic purpose as any non-free. This the primary reason why a non-free image is pretty much never allowed for a living person. A non-commercial or non-derivative Creative Commons license is freer than an "All Rights reserved" type of license, but it's still not free enough per WP:COPY#Guidelines for images and other media files or c:COM:LJ. So, it's treated as non-free content, which means a freely licensed or public domain image such as File:King Charles III (July 2023).jpg, which was being used in the Monarchy of Australia before you replaced with the non-free one discussed here, is more than sufficient for Wikipedia's purposes per relevant Wikipedia policy. In addition, the fact that something is released under a NC or ND license doesn't mean it isn't required (i.e. isn't subject to being reduced) to comply with WP:NFCC#3.The image File:The Queen of Australia.jpg was not uploaded locally to Wikipedia as non-free content; it was uploaded to Commons. Moreover, there's nothing in the file's description that implies its subject to the same non-commercial restrictions as the file you uploaded. If there were, it mostly would've never be kept on Comons. So, those are two big differences between the files. The file you uploaded, however, is specifically not allowed to be used for commercial purposes according to www
- If its a matter of incorrect licencing displayed, then that should just be altered. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 01:05, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
WP:UUI#9 and biographies about deceased individual
[edit]Item 9 of WP:NFC#UUI states that "cover art shouldn't used to illustrate the article on the person whose photograph is on the cover", but non-free images of deceased individuals are allowed for this purpose if all of the NFCCP are met. How does policy, therefore, treat non-free cover art when it's being used for primary identification purposes at the top of or in the main infobox of a stand-alone biography about a deceased individual? For example, File:The Life and Work of Dennis Potter (cover art).jpg and File:Album cover of Nephi the Polynesian man.jpg are being used for said purpose. There are probably more examples of this out there, but these two are the only ones I can remember at the moment. Neither of these is really the subject of any sourced critical commentary in their respective articles, and they appear to have been simply added because the subjects of the articles are dead. Does policy justallow such files be used in such way for that reason, or does it require different non-free images be used instead? -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:35, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Amalija Knavs image
[edit]Given that Amalija Knavs was the mother of Melania Trump it would seem that there's a very good chance that a free image could be found to use instead of File:Amalija Knavs.png or any non-free one. If Knavs appeared at any official White House events, there's a really good possibility she would've been photographed by an official White House photographer. There also seems to be a good chance that a photo of her was posted on an official social media account. The article was created back in January and appears to have gone without an image until the other day, but there's no indication on the article's talk page of any discussion related to an image search. -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:30, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- I thought so too. I was unable to find any but maybe someone else may have better luck. The vast majority of images I found were Getty/AP. TJMSmith (talk) 03:39, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
Non-free no reduce
[edit]While looking at some newly uploaded images, I came across File:Oscar S. Adams, 1933.jpg and saw that it was tagged with {{Non-free no reduce}}
. It seems a bit odd that an image used in a biography article like Oscar S. Adams needs to be so large given that default width for most infobox images is much smaller. So, I replaced the "non-free no reduce" template with a "non-free reduce" template. I then decided to take a look at some of the other images uploaded by the same uploader to see whether this was just a one off type of thing. It seems that two other files uploaded by the same uploader (File:Aage Gerhardt Drachmann.jpg and File:Яглом Исаак Моисеевич.jpg) have been tagged with "Non-free no reduce" as well. FWIW, I'm quite happy to go back and self-revert my edit to the first file if the consensus here is that particular file doesn't need to be reduced. However, if that's the case, I think some more guidance on when it's OK to use this template should be added to WP:IMAGERES and perhaps even Template:Non-free no reduce/doc, perhaps even an example or two of when it's not OK to use this template. It appears someone attempted to try and start a discussion about adding a |reason=
parameter to the template at Template talk:Non-free no reduce back in 2018, but never got a response. Perhaps this should be something worth discussing now. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:59, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I added these because these images are portraits of long-dead people with zero commercial value, for which it isn't too easy to find any portrait at all, and the auto reducer is absurdly aggressive in making everything gratuitously tiny and then hard deleting the originals. I don't think there's much chance the original photographers or publishing organizations even remember these portraits exist, let alone care that someone distributes them in the context of biographies, and there's no reasonable challenge to the claim that they are fair use, even at full size. Perhaps there should be some better middle-ground option(s) between "preserve the original upload" vs. "turn this into an unrecognizable thumbnail". –jacobolus (t) 07:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- The specific very bad experience I had with an image I added was with File:Blackboard bold in typewritten notes from Narasimhan (1966).png which was turned into such a ridiculously tiny thumbnail that the indicated feature (the shapes of the symbols and ) wasn't remotely visible anymore, even after I had tried to make it as small as possible before the bot came through. (Frankly the size I left it still doesn't properly demonstrate the letter shapes as intended.) But I have also seen plenty of other pages where standard biographical portraits of long-dead people of zero commercial value with unenforced sometimes nearly expired copyright, sometimes fairly hard to find better copies of, were made into thumbnails where the person could barely be recognized. As a reader, I always find these images extremely frustrating. I basically don't believe in adding images at all which aren't either free or far, far on the no-brainer side of the fair use line, but for the latter, I feel like making the images tiny mostly defeats the point of having them at all. –jacobolus (t) 07:58, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Images in which lots of intricate detail is going to be lost due to reduction probably don't need to reduced to the same degree as a "portrait photo" or "logo". Moreover, images which themselves are the subjects of articles in which certain apects of the image are critcally discussed in the article might also benefit from not being reduced or reduced as much. How much detail is really lost, though, when it comes to portrait photos being used in main infoboxes or at the tops of biography articles? For example, you also uploaded File:Nathan Altshiller Court.jpeg which also seems to have
zero commercial value
, but is much smaller than the other three mentioned above; yet, it seems to be serving it's encylopedic purpose of identifying Nathan Altshiller Court. How much detail will be lost if the other three imges are reduced to that size? -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:18, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Images in which lots of intricate detail is going to be lost due to reduction probably don't need to reduced to the same degree as a "portrait photo" or "logo". Moreover, images which themselves are the subjects of articles in which certain apects of the image are critcally discussed in the article might also benefit from not being reduced or reduced as much. How much detail is really lost, though, when it comes to portrait photos being used in main infoboxes or at the tops of biography articles? For example, you also uploaded File:Nathan Altshiller Court.jpeg which also seems to have