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Development of the Bektashi faith

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The large table given has no source, and I am strongly minded to remove it. On the face of it (to me, with some academic training in Islam) it looks tendentious: I note several comments from Bektashis in the threads above about being wrongly accused of syncretism, where their perception is that they are authentically Muslim (for want of a better term): the table would seem to do the same, forte. We should probably expect a source on every one of those links. But perhaps we don't even need to debate the merits of the genealogy given there: the connecting pipes are so vague as to make the table meaningless (and unhelpful) beyond vague insinuations. Are there other thoughts on this? Eteb3 (talk) 17:54, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Order name

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The opening claim that the Bektashi Order is short for what is confusingly called here the "Shī‘ah Imāmī Alevī-Bektāshī Ṭarīqah" is simply incorrect and unsubstatiated by existing literature on this religious tradition.

The name of the order is, in keeping with typical Sufi practice of organising a set of teachings around that of a founding historical and religious personality, dervied from the name of the 13th century Anatolian religious figure from whom the Order traces it's lineage. It is not an abbreviation of anything.

On the subject of including the Bektashis under the rubric of Imami Shi'ism, this has sometimes been a practice by some historians of Shi'ism such as Moojan Momen who includes it in a list of Shi'ite groups due to some superficial similarities in devotional practices and rhetoric but is rarely taken seriously by specialists in the field who stress the amalgamation of various religious currents in Medieval Anatolia to the distinct character of the Bektashis [1]

In older literature on the subject it was thought that the Bektashis may have been "Shi'itised" in the 15th century due to their proximity to Safavid propogandists. This view has been challenged in more recent studies which indicate increased Alid cultic practices to communities outside of this reach.[2] In any case the Bektashis themselves don't refer to themselves as Shi'ite, and certainly not Imami which conventially designates a particular form of religiosity maininted by a scholastic and legalistic hierarchy, not simply a devotion to the Twelve Imams which can be found amoung a multitude of non Shi'ite Muslim communities, especially in Anatolian Sufism.[3]

On the question of the common term Alevis often use to express their tradition in contemporary Turkey, that is "Alevi-Bektashi". This is a rather novel self designation of Alevi communities, particularly intellectuals in the 1980s and never a term used by the Bektashi Order which is an entirely seperate institution. On this subject I'd recommend consulting Markus Dressler's "Writing Religion" for a history in the evolution of this terminology.

To summarise, I feel it would be far more accurate to refer to the tradition in question to what it is called by both the Bektashis themselves an academia at large. That is simply, The Bektashis. Spinningsun (talk) 15:53, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Zarcone, Thierry (2014). "Bektasiyye" Encyclopedia of Islam (3 ed.). Brill. p. 21.
  2. ^ Yildrim, Riza (January 2013). "Shī'itisation of the Futuwwa Tradition in the Fifteenth Century". British Journal of Middle Eastern Studies. Vol 40 No 1. {{cite journal}}: |volume= has extra text (help)
  3. ^ Erginbaş, Vefa (July 2017). "Problematizing Ottoman Sunnism: Appropriation of Islamic History and Ahl al-Baytism in Ottoman Literary and Historical Writing in the Sixteenth Century". Journal of the Economic and Social History of the Orient. 60(5): 614-646.

Bektashi is much less than 20% of Muslims in Albania

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The 3rd paragraph of the page states that "Albania is the country with the most Bektashis, where they make up 20% of the Muslim population." The number comes from reference 9. The number is highly [dubious – discuss] though in the referred source it is mentioned twice. According to the Albania page, the whole population of the country is 2.8 million, there is less than 1.6 million Muslims (all Sunnis) and only 58 thousand Bektashi. That would do only about 3.75% of the Albanian Muslims, so the 20% is way off. PeterGabris (talk) 08:07, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

updated data here -- https://www.turkiyetoday.com/world/albanias-muslim-population-drops-below-50-for-first-time-in-centuries-24897/ 47.229.6.8 (talk) 21:37, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Request move January 2022

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved Mike Cline (talk) 13:42, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bektashi Order → Bektashism Bektashism is much more suitable for this article as it is the WP:COMMONNAME now. See [Ngrams] QKIMK (talk) 15:08, 10 January 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 18:56, 17 January 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 21:51, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That Ngram is about 50:50, so it makes little case for a move. Meanwhile, Google Scholar shows quite a different story. You get 2,050 hits for "Bektashi Order", versus just 53 hits for "Bektashism", so likely not at all the common name in reliable sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:27, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your google scholar search has a spelling mistake, 'bektashism' has 2,170 hits [1]—blindlynx 20:53, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Restricting google scholar searched to the last five years (2017-present) shows a clearer trend towards 'Bektashism' with 750 hits [2] vs 519 [3]—blindlynx 20:53, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, I could have sworn I double checked that. All of these comparisons are still little better than 50:50, 60:40-ish. We really need a better argument than Ngram and Google Scholar. This case should be being made by pulling up examples of recent authoritative sources referring to it as Bektashism rather than the Bektashi Order. It should be doable, as the movement appears to have shifted fairly clearly over its history from being a Sufi Order into something far more akin to its own syncretistic faith. Sources should reflect this. This type of narrative is reflected in pieces such as this, but we should really be looking for more scholarly evidence for such a shift in terminology from reputable, academic sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:31, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So something else to consider is that 'Bektashi Order' (searched without quotes) has 1660 hits since 2017 [4]. We're going to have to look at the sources more closely to see what's going on—blindlynx 21:38, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are also plenty of people and companies with Bektashi as a name, as noted in the last review of this, which went about things by excluding "LLC". So yes, source studying required. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:44, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is also a not uncommon trend for some works to manage to refer to the movement without deferring to either term - instead, sticking to just Bektashi and Bektashis (E.g.: here) Iskandar323 (talk) 21:49, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support per points made by QKIMK and blindlynx. It is also supported by a broader ngram, comprising Bektashism, Bektashiyya, Bektashi Order, Bektashi Islam and other. See [here] 9:03, 12 January 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.63.138.220 (talk)

Please re-read the points i have made, i don't think there is a clear case for a move—or keep—without a review of sources that is simply haven't had the time to do—blindlynx 16:21, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

After doing a look around myself I do want to note that the phrase 'Bektashi' seems to be vastly more popular than any other used term. Using one of the searches above and adding it to the list highlights how much more common it is in usage. If it can be found out if this term relates to the religion as a whole then perhaps it is the better article title? Dubarr18 (talk) 00:43, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Originated in 13th century Ottoman Empire?

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Ottoman Empire (or rather the Ottoman Beylik) was founded on 1299. Haci Bektas Veli died in 1271. This information cant be true. 178.246.149.65 (talk) 06:55, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, that statement in the lead contradicts the article body. Durraz0 (talk) 12:09, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 3 October 2024

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– WP:COMMONNAME;

Strong support per nom Kowal2701 (talk) 16:24, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom Abo Yemen✉ 17:04, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom, it is the common name. Durraz0 (talk) 17:05, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This move request was made by the LTA Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SheryOfficial, who has been socking at least once every month since 2019. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:34, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

that is unfortunate but this RM is actually constructive work Abo Yemen✉ 05:41, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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